Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

starScream

I would have done things way different as God.

There is no shortage of people or devil's that think they know better than God. The Devil beat you to rebellion. He stood up before anyone else to challenge God. God must deal with his challenge first. So take a number, get in line, and then on Judgement day you can tell God how wrong he is all you want. Maybe he can convince you better than I can that he is smarter than all of us.
You have to understand that once people and devil's start posing challenges to God he is going to have a tough time satisfying everyone because each challenge will require completely different actions to satisfy the challenge and prove the challenge false. There are now countless numbers of people that challenge the way God dealt with challenge.
This may seem like a copout, but God can do whatever he wants, and no one would know. If this isn't a good idea, then how about punish the perpetrators only
How does killing someone who poses a challenge prove them wrong? People have accused God on this board as being a tyrant. How would simply killing the perpetrator on the spot prove that that person's way was not a good way?
The whole thing about us inheriting sin is a bunch of BS. We did nothing to deserve punishment for THEIR sins.
Once again. Lets make sure we don't blame anyone except God. Adam chose to go along with Eve instead of God. So you would have God just kill them? What has God proven? That he can kill someone if they go against him? Adam and Eve chose to have kids. If you can't accept the fact that man inherrited sin then you are just in denial. Man has proven himself quite evil. This goes back to what the devil posed to God. God had a perfect plan for man and man chose his own course just like the devil. God must prove the devil wrong. Man is proving the devil wrong for God. When man finally fails completely God will get his chance to show that his way works better than what the devil came up with.
If you want to blame someone for your situation, that is fine. Just make sure it is the right person. You have still yet to come up with another way for God to prove the devil wrong. Simply killing them and wiping out our memories so that we don't challenge the rebellion is a form of deception. God does not need to be a coward. He knows he is right. He has no reason to be afraid of a challenge.
starScream

What about the rest of us? We had no choice and yet still suffer. How is this fair?

So you want God to rule because you see that we suck at it? Man is causing us to suffer. We have inherrited a world that has been corrupted by the devil and man. God gracefully gave man and satan a perfect heaven and a perfect world. We did not deserve a perfect world, yet we still had one. We have ruined it and kicked God out by rebelling. Blame man. Blame the devil.
Now I will pre-empt the next challenge which is, it still wouldn't be a perfect world even if man acted much better. This is true. Unfortunately this contradicts another challenge againt God that already exists. According to John Lennon and his lackies if you can Imagine a perfect world maybe we can make it happen. God still has to let them be proven wrong. Man will not stop challenging God untill he fails. This should be obvious by now. God must satisfy all challenges so that he doesn't give the appearence of being a tyrant.
StinkyPantz
StinkyPantz

There is no shortage of people or devil's that think they know better than God. The Devil beat you to rebellion. He stood up before anyone else to challenge God. God must deal with his challenge first. So take a number, get in line, and then on Judgement day you can tell God how wrong he is all you want. Maybe he can convince you better than I can that he is smarter than all of us.
If there is a God and it’s the one in the Bible, then I think that there are plenty of people that would’ve done things better, not just myself. Don’t you think that his creation sucks? His creation doesn’t work properly and it hurts itself. Is this to mean that the Biblical God knew what he was doing? Is doesn’t seem to be the case.
You have to understand that once people and devil's start posing challenges to God he is going to have a tough time satisfying everyone because each challenge will require completely different actions to satisfy the challenge and prove the challenge false. There are now countless numbers of people that challenge the way God dealt with challenge.
So, he knows what’s right, isn’t that enough?
How does killing someone who poses a challenge prove them wrong? People have accused God on this board as being a tyrant. How would simply killing the perpetrator on the spot prove that that person's way was not a good way?
I can’t believe you even posed this question. God killed Adam and Eve didn’t He? He’s killing ALL of us to prove some demented point! Didn’t people get stoned in Biblical times via God’s mandate to prove a point? Why didn’t he do the same with Satan an use his death as an example?
Once again. Lets make sure we don't blame anyone except God. Adam chose to go along with Eve instead of God. So you would have God just kill them? What has God proven? That he can kill someone if they go against him? Adam and Eve chose to have kids. If you can't accept the fact that man inherrited sin then you are just in denial. Man has proven himself quite evil. This goes back to what the devil posed to God. God had a perfect plan for man and man chose his own course just like the devil. God must prove the devil wrong. Man is proving the devil wrong for God. When man finally fails completely God will get his chance to show that his way works better than what the devil came up with.
I think you missed my point. If the Biblical account is to be believed then let’s hold Satan, Adam and Eve accountable since they committed the sin. We weren’t even born so why should we suffer? So what they wanted kids? If a rapist chose to have children, do we punish them for their father’s crimes? Man (made in God’s image) are evil, so the point has been proven, but why hasn’t God changed things?
“Man chose his course”. . . no, we didn’t get to choose anything. If we did, I somehow missed the vote.
If you want to blame someone for your situation, that is fine. Just make sure it is the right person. You have still yet to come up with another way for God to prove the devil wrong. Simply killing them and wiping out our memories so that we don't challenge the rebellion is a form of deception. God does not need to be a coward. He knows he is right. He has no reason to be afraid of a challenge.
I blame the all knowing Creator. If he knew he was right, then this entire fiasco was unnecessary. As for a way to prove the Devil wrong, he could’ve simply told the Devil it would fail and since God can’t lie, Satan would’ve been forced to believe him.
starScream

Don’t you think that his creation sucks?

I have seen his creations and they are awesome. I have yet to do better.
Don’t you think that his creation sucks?
On judgement day maybe he can use you to pick out the ones that he should get rid of. And while your at it you can tell him he sucks and then prove why he sucks and see if anyone agrees with you.
Is this to mean that the Biblical God knew what he was doing? Is doesn’t seem to be the case.
If he didn't know what he was doing the devil's way would rival his. No one knew what would be the result of the devil's rebellion. 1/3 of heaven agreed that the devil was right. It was a very popular rebellion.
So, he knows what’s right, isn’t that enough?
Apparently not, you still think he's wrong.
God killed Adam and Eve didn’t He?
Wrong, they committed suicide. God told them that if they disobeyed they would die. God didn't do anything to them.
He’s killing ALL of us to prove some demented point!
God killed someone you know?
Didn’t people get stoned in Biblical times via God’s mandate to prove a point?
Are you an anarchist? If the law does not enforce itself what is the purpose of the law? When I rob a bank and kill people in the process will you present this arguement for the jury on the basis that the law is demented? Can I kill you for fun because the law that says I can't is demented? If I kill you would you want me to be punished? (BTW I like you im not trying to be a jerk).
Why didn’t he do the same with Satan an use his death as an example?
We have already gone over this. 1/3 of heaven agreed with Satan. If God simply killed them all then the next rebellion would say "I don't want to serve this God. He is simply a tyrant that rules by force." God wants people to serve him because they have faith that his way is the only one that is good and we are fortunate to have him.
His creation doesn’t work properly and it hurts itself.
God created it to work properly. I have already stated that freewill was a gift. Are you saying freewill sucks?
I think you missed my point. If the Biblical account is to be believed then let’s hold Satan, Adam and Eve accountable since they committed the sin.
I think you missed mine. The next rebellion would say "So what? What is wrong with sin. God is the one that casued the problem when they sinned. Sin is not wrong. God is wrong." We are not suffering because of God. The rebels posed a challenge. The rebels are proving themselves wrong. They will be held accountable.
If a rapist chose to have children, do we punish them for their father’s crimes?
No. They are responsible for the crimes they commit. But as it turns out (P.S.A.) parents who use drugs have chilldrean who use drugs.
Man (made in God’s image) are evil, so the point has been proven, but why hasn’t God changed things?
(Nice indirect indictment) John Lennon and his lackies are not satisfied. They think that if you can just Imagine a perfect world, we can make it happen. I agree that the point has been proven. Not everyone is convinced that it has. I'm sure the devil would endorse John Lennon's request for more time.
no, we didn’t get to choose anything. If we did, I somehow missed the vote.
Here was your vote:
Don’t you think that his creation sucks? Man (made in God’s image) are evil. I blame the all knowing Creator
This is my vote: God is right. The devil is wrong. Adam was wrong. Eve was wrong. The rebels have demonstrated this.
As for a way to prove the Devil wrong, he could’ve simply told the Devil it would fail and since God can’t lie, Satan would’ve been forced to believe him
Show me the devil's track record for believing and having faith in what God says. The devil whole case revolves aroung trapping God in a lie. The devil is still looking for a way to call God a liar.
StinkyPantz

I want to retract my statement that "God's creation sucks" for a couple of reasons. 1) It probably offends some people and I don't want that. 2) Some things that are in existence are wonderful. Nevertheless, I still think that there was a flaw somewhere in God's design of us. If God's plan was perfect and executed perfectly with no room for error, then things should've continued running smoothly; why didn't they? Free will? Well some part of his "perfect" and "good" creatures wanted something "bad". How could a perfect being created from a perfect God seek "bad" things? God himself regretted making us, that in itself shows that he questioned his own work. Don't you think if he tried this again he'd change some things? If so, that shows that something, however minute, was flawed. If this turned out to be the case, then God is in fact to blame. . .
starScream

I want to retract my statement that "God's creation sucks"

Good. No sensible person would believe that for very long.
things should've continued running smoothly; why didn't they? Free will?
Rebellion caused things to go wrong. Free will was a mandatory perameter for what God wanted out of his creations. He wanted voluntary service.
Well some part of his "perfect" and "good" creatures wanted something "bad".
It's not that they wanted something bad. They thought that their ideas were better (or gooder). They thought that they could know better than God, like you are doing now.
How could a perfect being created from a perfect God seek "bad" things
They didn't seek bad things. They rebelled. This rebellion allowed them to change themselves from what God had made. They were no longer what God had made. Then they sought bad things.
God himself regretted making us
I have not yet seen this demonstrated.
that in itself shows that he questioned his own work.
I have not seen that demonstrated and if God questioned his own work he would be considering the possibilty that he was wrong. God can do no wrong. He is too smart to make a mistake.
Don't you think if he tried this again he'd change some things?
The only thing you have successfully brought into question is the virtue in the gift of free will. If God does not grant free will then God has robots, not sentient beings. Sentient beings are much more wonderful that robots. Robots can only be programmed to love. That would not be genuine love. Since God is a God of love, he would not be satisfied with that creation. So he would have no choice but to create the same things he did before and run the risk of rebellion. Once this rebellion is proved wrong beyond all question the remaining creatures can attest to God's true authority and the anarchy and misery that rebellion leads to. These creatures can then act on an authority given by God to crush any rebellion should it arise, if ever.
If so, that shows that something, however minute, was flawed.
I'm sorry, that is incorrect, unless you can show something that should have been changed.
If this turned out to be the case, then God is in fact to blame. . .
That is in fact not the case. I'm sorry but you just haven't shown anything that God could have done to create intelligent creatures, with freewill, and no chance of a rebellion. The only objection you can raise at this point is that 'freewill is evil' and only God should have it. Feel free to start over.
StinkyPantz

Rebellion caused things to go wrong. Free will was a mandatory perameter for what God wanted out of his creations. He wanted voluntary service.

This still doesn't seem good enough for me. It's obvious that humans can't run things. It's been obvious for a long time and yet God is allowing horrible atrocities to befall us century after century.
Could you stand idly by (when you had the power to stop it) and watch your child (who rebelled because they were mislead) year after year cut herself, or gouge herself or many other horrible things to prove that she didn't know what was best for her? No, of course not; and yet God does. Our suffering wins the bet that He and Satan have going.
It's not that they wanted something bad. They thought that their ideas were better (or gooder). They thought that they could know better than God, like you are doing now.
When my kid does that, he'll get a spanking, not years of horrible torture, but that's just me. I suppose if he insists that he can handle playing with matches, I'll just let him continue to burn himself to prove I was right. It's his free will as a naive child. Adam and Eve were also naive, and we're all getting burned for it.
They didn't seek bad things. They rebelled. This rebellion allowed them to change themselves from what God had made. They were no longer what God had made. Then they sought bad things.
Interesting. . . I disagree, but interesting nonetheless. . .
God himself regretted making us, I have not yet seen this demonstrated.
How about: Genesis 6 6 (1) The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was (2) grieved in His heart.
I have not seen that demonstrated and if God questioned his own work he would be considering the possibilty that he was wrong. God can do no wrong. He is too smart to make a mistake.
He regretted making us, so he apparently thinks he did something wrong, otherwise why the regret?
The only thing you have successfully brought into question is the virtue in the gift of free will. If God does not grant free will then God has robots, not sentient beings. Sentient beings are much more wonderful that robots. Robots can only be programmed to love. That would not be genuine love. Since God is a God of love, he would not be satisfied with that creation. So he would have no choice but to create the same things he did before and run the risk of rebellion. Once this rebellion is proved wrong beyond all question the remaining creatures can attest to God's true authority and the anarchy and misery that rebellion leads to. These creatures can then act on an authority given by God to crush any rebellion should it arise, if ever.
Maybe our sense of free will is flawed. Maybe God gave Satan too much leeway. Whatever the case is, things will continue to remain how they are. What happens once God decides that enough is enough? Won't history eventually repeat itself? If so, he should just give it up.
you just haven't shown anything that God could have done to create intelligent creatures, with freewill, and no chance of a rebellion.
StarScream, this isn't my job. If God is perfect he should've come up with a better solution so that this never could've happened. I know you say that before Satan rebelled, God hadn't even thought of something like this happening (how do you know this by the way?). How could an all-knowing being overlook this possibility? If you create something perfectly, then everything should be considered,
Chap

There has been a lot of discussion and points made. I would basically answer them the same way starScream did. Thanks.
One thing. If we being finite were to totally understand God, wouldn't that prove him finite as well?
StinkyPantz: About Genesis 6. I think God relates to us on our level. I don't think my brain can comprehend how he truly felt. Sometimes we can be sorry at a particular moment that we married our spouse for example. That does not mean we regret it or were wrong for doing it.
Chap

Would an immoral/ammoral god sacrifice part of himself so that anyone who repented and believed in him would be restored?
If there are many wills instead of one, they will clash and cause misery, fights, war, etc. This has been proven. The "God is a totalitarian because we are not free to do what we want" argument does not hold up. Does a good king allow anarchy? I have disobeyed God many times. Am I not still here? We have not seen the environment God wants for his creation because there is rebellion. God says his way is good for everyone. I am looking forward to finding this truth out for myself.

Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

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