Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • starScream
    starScream
    The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was (2) grieved in His heart.

    I would agree that God felt grief from his what his creation had become. The regret was over the pain he had felt for the creation. This to me does not indicate that God considered it a mistake. If that was the intent of the passage it would have said God though he made a mistake. In contrast I think this shows that God suffers along with the creation. If anything this shows God's compassion not his monstrosity.

    It's obvious that humans can't run things. It's been obvious for a long time and yet God is allowing horrible atrocities to befall us century after century.

    Man has created the atrocites. God will allow man to run the full course of history since the challenge still exists and has not been surrendered. If the challenge were Universally surrendered then I'm sure God would put it to an end. Satan would never surrender the challenge though.

    Could you stand idly by (when you had the power to stop it) and watch your child (who rebelled because they were mislead) year after year cut herself, or gouge herself or many other horrible things to prove that she didn't know what was best for her?

    When the Continental Congress declared itself independant of England it had cut itself off from English support. The United States was at that point solely responsible for what happened to itself. It would be absolutely ridiculous to accuse England of Evil for not coming to the aid of the U.S. after that point. The U.S. made its decision. If the people in the U.S. found themselves up a creek they could not rightly blame England. The only people they could blame were their Congressmen.

    When my kid does that, he'll get a spanking, not years of horrible torture, but that's just me.

    If your kid wants to torture herself their would not be much you could do about it. If your kid tried to divorce you and take your possesions because your kid blamed you for everything that was wrong with her life I'm sure that at some point you would just get sick it and say "You know what baby? If you think I am so evil and such a horrible parent, then go. Show me what a horrible parent I am and how you know so much more than I do."

    Adam and Eve were also naive, and we're all getting burned for it.

    You are still being naive for not having faith that God is right and the devil is wrong. You are burning yourself.

    He regretted making us, so he apparently thinks he did something wrong, otherwise why the regret?

    He did not think he was wrong. He did not feel foolish. He regretted the pain he had put himself through. Read the passage. He was in pain. He never called himself wrong it is obvious that the regret was directed at the value of his creation in relation to the pain it had caused him. His creatures hurt him. I don't this is comparable to shame. Keep in mind that regret is simply a question of whether somehting was worth "it". What "it" is, in this case means the difference between pain or as you say some sort of error on God's part. Of course I would like to know how God could have made us and done any better. At this point it seems that you think man is an abomination.

    Maybe our sense of free will is flawed. Maybe God gave Satan too much leeway

    Will is the ability to determine one's actions. By defintion there is only one form of "free" will. That is distinguished by the lack of limits to what one can determine for him/herself.

    Maybe God gave Satan too much leeway

    There is a case of Monday morning quarterback if I have ever heard one. Anyhow, you are changing free will into a program.

    Won't history eventually repeat itself? If so, he should just give it up.

    The purpose of allowing the rebellion to run its course is so that history does not repeat itself. Once God's just authority is proven over all rebellions then rebellions need not be answered. They can be as you wish them to be crushed. I don't think we will ever see one again though. Once the new Kingdom is established with the masses of grace filling it ranks it will be far more glorious than ever before, which was only possible through the vindication of God's soveriegnty.

    God give up as God? No he should not. God cannot give up and we don't want him too.

    I know you say that before Satan rebelled, God hadn't even thought of something like this happening

    You cannot surprise God.

    StarScream, this isn't my job.

    Then stop making it your crusade to prove God wrong. You are saying that God is wrong and that it is not your job to prove it. Did you see "A Few Good Men"? Accusing a high ranking officer without proper evidence can get you into "trouble."Your job is to love God with you whole heart, mind and soul.

    How could an all-knowing being overlook this possibility?

    You are convicting God for something someone else did. If you set the speed limit on the freeway at 55 you know people will speed and you don't have to be all knowing to figure that out. The speed limit exists for a reason none the less.

    I must tell you. You seem to have higher accusations for God than the devil.

    If God is perfect he should've come up with a better solution so that this never could've happened.

    You still aren't grasping the concept of freewill. Man and the angels had free will. They were able to freely choose to reject God. Without that choice it is not free will. You are right. It is not your job to figure out a better way. You are apparently telling me you can't think of a better way but there must have been a better way? If there was a better way then tell me. If you can't think of one you are proving the devil wrong and satisfying your own objection. I mean hell, even Satan came up with SOMETHING when he challenged God.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    starScream/Chap;

    We have a problem. There are several reasons why. I don’t believe in the Biblical god, any more than I believe in Ahura-Mazda or (insert name of deity here). It’s clear the Genesis account of creation is as flawed as any other creation myth, when compared with the evidence around us.

    That doesn’t mean I exclude the possibility of god, although I find no reliable external evidence for it.

    This means when I examine a set of religious beliefs, I don’t have the presuppositions you have (although arguably I have a different set). What I look at is whether the religious belief makes sense.

    God knew what was going to happen. To argue otherwise is illogical, as God clearly has the ability to see into the future when he so wishes. If something bad happens as a result of him not exercising this ability, it is his responsibility. He is God. The buck stops there. If God ‘knew’ that his Son would be pierced by a spear, and his legs would not be broken (when he was killed), then he could have known that Satan would rebel.

    If God were unable to use this foreknowledge to forestall all the human misery that has gone on since then as a direct consequence of a foreseeable design fault in His creation, then he is either irresponsible, incompetent, or has vastly different morals than me.

    Now here is the problem. Given this circumstance how would it satisfy you that God was the correct authority?

    Well, again, I have a problem with the actual circumstances of man's Fall. I believe if there is a god, he gave us freewill. I find the idea that a vastly powerful entity would create us as marionettes without freewill implausible. I don’t think there is direct Biblical evidence either way, so if you disagree with me regarding humans having freewill I would appreciate a argument from Scripture. Whether I would want to serve a puppet-master is a different thing, if you can prove the Biblical concept of God allows this conception.

    Looking at the Biblical account of the Fall, God seems to say, “You can do what you will, but stay offa my two tall trees, thank you very much.” Now, a five year old will tell you that you cannot be a little bit pregnant, or a little bit a slave, or a little bit free. Freewill is or isn’t, and with any restrictions, you don’t have freewill. Setting up, with foreknowledge of failure, an experiment where the subjects were going to fail is not fair. Then, when Adam and Eve sin, God CHANGES the rules. He effectively says “Okay, so you can do things yourself, or at least think you can. Well, I’m going to show you can’t BUT, you know how you were perfect, with infinite life spans and perfect health? Well, you’re not perfect any more.”

    This is akin to setting up a situation where someone will agree to enter a contest (say a race), and then changing the rules to make it harder for them to win (say by cutting one leg off) after they have entered it. It’s a con, or cheating. If God had said; “Okay, I’m off for the next x thousand years, see how you do without me”, and had not changed the rules, then it could be argued of as fair.

    THEN, when despite God cheating, mankind to develop a co-operative society so successful he has to destroy it by confusing languages; the one legged man, conned to enter a race, when doing well, is shot in the other leg.

    Fair? No. And I am made in God’s image, so my innate feeling, this deep conviction that behaviour like this would violate my conscience, is one I should listen to.

    I cannot believe that God, if he exists, is so petty, flawed and corrupt. I think that that idea of god is very man made - not God making us in His image, but man making god in his. If god exists, he would logically be far grander than that.

    I might be interpreting things incorrectly, and I am interested in your counter argument on the above points.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    The cooperative society you speak of was a totalitarian forerunner of the modern globalist movement. Nimrod and Co. Whereas God was actually helping humanity's condition by breaking Nimrod's power over them. A tyrant overthrown.

    CZAR

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    czar;

    The cooperative society you speak of was a totalitarian forerunner of the modern globalist movement. Nimrod and Co. Whereas God was actually helping humanity's condition by breaking Nimrod's power over them. A tyrant overthrown.

    Oh, I see...

    Is the fact you've not addressed the issues regarding the Fall and the two tree test in Eden mean that you don't have a counter arguement against those points?

    Because if you don't have a counter arguement against those points, and Nimrod was a tyrant (evidence of this from contemporary sources would be nice, but you can use the Bible as well if we make allowances for it being a one-sided account), then all it was was a battle between two tyrants. That doesn't really make god look any better...

    Also, if god was setting a test of whether humans could gvvern themselves, his interferance totally invalidated it, be it for good or ill. This changability is very surprising when you consider that the Hebrew name for god is rendered 'I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be', or something like that, as the name suggests unchangability, and the actions in this (and other cases) is not even consistant with the name god must have chosen for itself.

    I'd also be interested to see you provide evidence that show that the Tower of Bable culture is 'a totalitarian forerunner of the modern globalist movement', and also to define exactly what you mean by 'modern globalist movement', with examples to show that such a movement exists, as I was unable to find its web page.

  • starScream
    starScream
    There are several reasons why. I don’t believe in the Biblical god, any more than I believe in Ahura-Mazda or (insert name of deity here).

    Fine, then you don't need to address my points. I am not debating the existence of God or a particular God. You either accept the fact that cause preceeds effect or you don't. Right now I am debating the qualities of a particular God.

    God knew what was going to happen. To argue otherwise is illogical, as God clearly has the ability to see into the future when he so wishes

    I have already stated this.

    If something bad happens as a result of him not exercising this ability, it is his responsibility. He is God. The buck stops there.

    Wrong. The buck stops with the agent of action. We are all free agents. You can't say "its not my fault I robbed a bank and killed people. The Government knew I was capable of it so therefore it is their Fault." Well you can say it but any reasonable person knows that you are full of crap if you do.

    then he is either irresponsible, incompetent, or has vastly different morals than me.

    Yes, you just demonstrated that your morality is flawed. You hold people responsible for things that they did not do and do not hold the doer accountable. If you honestly blame God for what other's do then you believe free will is an abomination and choose to be a puppet. You have also rejected the puppet creation concept so you are basically stuck with a contradictory demand from God. You want God to do it one way but as long as it is completely different than the one way. God cannot make a rock explode but also stay completely intact. That is what you are asking him to do.

    I find the idea that a vastly powerful entity would create us as marionettes without freewill implausible. I don’t think there is direct Biblical evidence either way, so if you disagree with me regarding humans having freewill I would appreciate a argument from Scripture. Whether I would want to serve a puppet-master is a different thing, if you can prove the Biblical concept of God allows this conception.

    You are not being clear as to whether or not the biblical God gave man freewill. You have stated that we have free will. If God created man, he gave man free will based on you statement. You have already conceded that apparently so I don't know what you are asking.

    “You can do what you will, but stay offa my two tall trees, thank you very much.” Now, a five year old will tell you that you cannot be a little bit pregnant, or a little bit a slave, or a little bit free.

    "He did not say you can do what you will." That would be a contradiction "to stay offa my two tall trees, thank you very much." They were created with the ability to do as they willed. They willed to disobey.

    Freewill is or isn’t, and with any restrictions, you don’t have freewill.

    This is false. Will is to determine your own actions conciously. They obviously deliberated their actions before doing them. Rules are irrelevant to will. If you can will to break a rule and act on it you OBVIOUSLY are free to do as you choose. They could choose to do as God wanted or as God did not want. That proves they were free to act on their own accord. Your definition of freewill is not free will. We have a word for your definition. It is called anarchy.

    Then, when Adam and Eve sin, God CHANGES the rules.

    This is false. The rules were already in place.

    Well, you’re not perfect any more.

    Adam and Eve chose death. They chose to believe the devil and that God lied.

    This is akin to setting up a situation where someone will agree to enter a contest (say a race), and then changing the rules to make it harder for them to win

    That is incorrect. It is akin to setting up the race with penalties in mind for breaking the rules. A runner can be disqualified if he chooses to break the rules.

    THEN, when despite God cheating, mankind to develop a co-operative society so successful he has to destroy it by confusing languages

    They were successful at being evil. God is free to judge a government or anyone else for that matter. You admit man is not perfect and can be quite evil. God can do what he wants

    I cannot believe that God, if he exists, is so petty, flawed and corrupt.

    Neither can I. I have not seen God act petty, show a flaw or any corruption. His accusers always fit that profile though and are by default, hypocrites.

    If god exists, he would logically be far grander than that.

    He is. You accuse God of everything and honor him for nothing. 2/3 of Heaven saw right through the devil. They willfully chose to believe that God was wiser and mightier than they could possibly imagine. Why would anyone think a finite creation can exceed or know better than its infinite creator? God began creation on the basis of love. His creation had the option to Judge God as it had free will. Satan Judged love as weakness. He (satan) made (created) a critical error, not God. This proves that God is beyond perfection.

  • blackout
    blackout
    2/3 of Heaven saw right through the devil. They willfully chose to believe that God was wiser and mightier than they could possibly imagine. Why would anyone think a finite creation can exceed or know better than its infinite creator? God began creation on the basis of love. His creation had the option to Judge God as it had free will. Satan Judged love as weakness. He (satan) made (created) a critical error, not God. This proves that God is beyond perfection.

    Maybe they were too scared to stand up for themselves, after all they saw what god did to Adam and Eve and to Satan when they exercised their free will. Maybe if we all excercise our free will he will wipe us all out and start again. I dont wish to worship a god that makes a creation then punishes it for how he made it.

    God began creation on the basis of love. His creation had the option to Judge God as it had free will. Satan Judged love as weakness. He (satan) made (created) a critical error, not God. This proves that God is beyond perfection.

    and by the way the above proves nothing.

  • starScream
    starScream
    Maybe they were too scared to stand up for themselves, after all they saw what god did to Adam and Eve and to Satan when they exercised their free will.

    Satan rebelled before the creation of Adam and Eve. God did not even do ANYTHING to Satan until long after the creation of Adam and Eve. So, after all, they didn't see any of what you stated. You can't accuse God of intimidation to coerce loyalty out of the other 2/3 of heaven it didn't happen like that. If anything Satan scared angels into worshipping him because they feared his wrath.

    I dont wish to worship a god that makes a creation then punishes it for how he made it.

    I don't either. God does not punish creation for the way he made it.

  • Chap
    Chap

    Assuming that people doing God's will are keeping his commandments and by default everyone else is doing Satan's will, consider the following.

    A person wants to "help" God make a prophesy come true. How much can this person actually do? Let's say he thinks he needs power so he tries to become president of the US. Already he has a problem; God's commandments. "Thou shall not bear false witness" for example. Lets say he figures that God will understand and ignores the problem. He is no longer doing God's will.

    Let's take an actual person from history, Adolf Hitler. Since he did not believe in God, (he was a Darwinist) he was free to do what he wanted. I believe Satan was behind this man to accomplish his purpose which is to prove God to be a liar. His strategy had to fronts, either would make him a winner. The first was to exterminate all Jews (God's chosen people) so the prophesys concerning Israel would not come true. The second was to conquer the world so the prophesy in Daniel saying that there would be no world empires after Rome would be proven false. Either of these things would also prove that God is not all powerful, all knowing, etc.

    As a direct result of Satan trying to nullify prophesy, Israel was restored as a nation.

    Isaiah 11:11
    And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

    Emphasis mine.

    What other people was kicked out of its land and returned once let alone twice?

    The problem with everyone being free to do as he pleases is that not everyone wants the same things. Therefore, Satan is fighting against himself.

  • starScream
    starScream
    Since he did not believe in God, (he was a Darwinist) he was free to do what he wanted

    I don't think that can be established so easily. Hitler was influenced by many things. He was a Catholic. Germany also had a lot of Aryan mysticism at the time too. The Nazis had a lot of Dogma, the SS especially, that basically told the German (Aryan) race were the Original Atlantians (from outer space of course). It was their destiny to rebuild Atlantis and the perfect Aryan race and then dominate the sub-races.

    Hitler probably believed in God. The Nazis also tried to fulfill prophecy themselves. They were interested in Nostrodomus' prophecies concerning their rise to power and made special propaganda films based on it. The irony is they never finished reading the prophecy they were so keen on fulfilling. It was obvious that they lost in the prophecy.

    As a direct result of Satan trying to nullify prophesy, Israel was restored as a nation

    This is a major recurring theme. God usually doesn't have to do anything. It is usually his opposers that unwittingly help him out the most. Who can possibly believe that God could lose in a battle of witts with the devil or anyone?

    The problem with everyone being free to do as he pleases is that not everyone wants the same things. Therefore, Satan is fighting against himself.

    If everyone gets their own way then fairly soon there is an 'infinite' number of fool-gods trying to do an 'infinite' number of fool-god things. God save us from these fool-gods.

  • archangel01
    archangel01

    God knew satan was up to something and well knew what he was going to raise up.But god in his own way gave that angel a chance to stay good an not turn away. In other words give him the chose to do good or bad or offer a better way from Gods view point, but how.........God gave that angel a name (lucifer) which means shinning star, a higher position, and had him rule over the earth and make sure adam & eve were safe/to watch over them etc.God wants all his creations to be super happy, just like when adam wanted a mate god gave him a woman from his own body and he was happy! So God showed love in the form of gifts from the heart.So God gave lucifer the means ness. to either bring honor to God by doing as so and to stay good or abuse his new power an position to go against God. Well we all know what went down sad to say. That's why it's not God's fault , that angel at any time could have went to God about how he was feeling however the Bible doesn't say he did but God given him those gifts of power/position and the gift of more beauty and a name, means and let's us know God read his mind and knew what gifts would be just an would make him happy an whole. So there was No reason to go against God because God is GOOD and cannot be tried with evil things! So when lucifer made himself into the devil it was his OWN fault and no one was to bame but himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's my two cent on this topic

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