why celebrate xmas? (page 4)

peacefulpete

Matt 2 makes it plain the star didn't first lead to a manger but to King Herod who wanted to kill Jesus.

I know the WT says that but read it yourself. It does not say that at all. It says the Magi logically went to Jerusalem (the Capitol of Judea) after seeing a star (common sign of birth of kings) rise in the east and ask around:

“Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

The star does not move from the east to lead them to Herod, rather Herod hears about these Magi asking around and then secretly has them summoned to him.

7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

The star they had seen when in the east then, to their joy, reappears and helps them locate Jesus.

The twisted version of the WT is a deliberate misrepresentation of the story to demonize the familiar Xmas scene.

enoughisenough

peacefulpete....you are correct in the star reappearing from what I read in Matt 2:9,10 ....Why did it evidently disappear over Jerusalem when it knew exactly where the child was to begin with?

Beth Sarim

It's been related that the Borg has to ban Xmas because the sheeple may realize what a ''great time this is and what is wrong with it''.

That way the Borg ratchets-down the thought control and maintains 'thought' contro.

All part of the B.I.T.E. model.

peacefulpete

It didn't "appear over" Jerusalem at all. A star was seen by magi in the east and was interpreted as hailing the birth of the King of the Jews. They went to the capital to honor him. The story assumes you know that the whole world was awaiting the Messiah and had interpreted Numbers 24:17 the way the author and many Jews did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Prophecy

I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel,

In the story they proceed to Bethlehem (to again"fulfill prophecy")

Their efforts were assisted by the star now somehow appearing over the house. It's a bit of a stretch of course but that is legend making. This allowed them to give gold and frankincense to "fulfill" another prophecy (Is 60:3,6)

“Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your radiance…. They will carry gold and frankincense and proclaim the praises of the Lord

The whole classic Herod killing the baby boys is another typological "prophecy" from the Moses story. To have it 'fulfilled' required the Magi go to Jerusalem first.

The Egypt "prophecy" is likewise made possible by the mention of the family fleeing there,

so to the subsequent moving to "Nazar"eth to fulfill the "prophecy" that he would be a "Nazar"ene. (perhaps reaching a bit with the word Nezer, the village didn't exist until centuries after the OT was written or seeing another typology in Samson, Samuel or John the Baptist being Nazarites).

I know you are a believer but the story here and in Luke are each constructed from elements from the OT. The star is not a nefarious plot but a miraculous supernatural sign of the birth. The version Ignatius is familiar with especially makes clear that point.

enoughisenough

I am of the opinion, if you want to celebrate, go ahead, but call it what it really is. It isn't the birthday of Jesus...calling it that doesn't make it so even if some choose to think in that way. Attaching Jesus to make holy what isn't doesn't fly. The Israelites made a golden calf and called it a festival to Jehovah...how well did that work out? Years ago, a man told me that he knew xmas was pagan, but he loved it. ( that being said, I dare say many things we all do today, were done by the "pagans". Somewhere in all of this, I think motive has to be considered.

peacefulpete

enough...we all understand what you are saying because we all would have agreed with you at some point. Seeing things a new way takes time and the right bits of information to fall into the right places. For most Christians since the NT celebrates the birth of Jesus with heavenly choruses and gift giving they feel it is appropriate to do the same. Non Christians appreciate the best aspects of the Jesus tradition and embrace the charity and joy.

peacefulpete

The Israelites made a golden calf and called it a festival to Jehovah..

Yahweh is often represented as bull god, in both the OT and iconography. The Exodus story isn't objecting to the bull per se but the idol. You must remember that these stories were compiled and redacted to serve a purpose. This one is an anti-idolatry tale that appears to be specifically responding to the Jeroboam use of the bull idols in Dan and Bethel. Ironically it likely preserves the pre-exilic tradition of depicting Yahweh as a or with a bull/ox.

enoughisenough

peacefulpete, thank you for your explanations...you made some points that are well worth consideration.

jhine

Punk l think that even Kier Starmer couldn't ignore attempted murder.

Jan

TonusOH

I think the example about motivation is being misunderstood, or perhaps isn't clear enough. The distinction is being made between killing an innocent person who poses no threat (murder) and killing a person who is actively threatening the life of another.

Now, in the latter example, it's very possible that the person who kills the other person(s) will be arrested and charged, as it is not a case of self-defense. But at trial, it's very likely that this person's explanation would see them exonerated, or at worst being convicted of a lesser charge. After all, the intent was to save a life, not necessarily take one.

But also... don't bring a baseball bat to a swordfight.

why celebrate xmas?

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