by raymond frantz 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
Riley;
Its amazing. The Borg relies and depends on democracies. It actually depends on governments for their own existence.
Then it condemns them wishing for their demise.
The Borg hates education. Then relies on professionals who have it for health,, medication & technologies ..
The Borg relies on governments for freedom of religion. Then it doesn't grant the same for its followers.
Here.
Stacy's weekly upload. Exposing blatant hypocrissy. This time he bashes the borg's claim on ''tolerance''.
@Duran
he Bible is clear there will be nation states in the Millennium:
Revelation 21:24:
"The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it."
This verse describes the New Jerusalem but implies that nations and their leaders continue to exist, contributing their glory to God’s kingdom. It suggests a diversity of peoples and governance under Christ's rule.
Isaiah 2:2-4:
"In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains... All nations will stream to it."
Nations are portrayed as distinct entities that come to worship God, reflecting their preserved identity and role.
I see what you are saying there but that is not the same as what it is now.
When you read 'nations' there it is clearer if you think 'peoples'.
1484. ethnos - nation, gentile, people
1471. goy - nation, gentile, people
This you have right:
It suggests a diversity of peoples and governance under Christ's rule.
The key being the second part of that, 'governance under Christ's rule.'
Today we have different 'nations' (countries) with their own borders, laws, governance, languages.
Under God's kingdom and governance under Jesus' rule, there will be 'peoples' of all the current 'nations', so a 'diversity of peoples' you seek will be there, but the culture, history, and languages are done away with and start anew under however/whatever God has instore for his 'peoples' living under kingdom rule.
[21And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away,5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.”]
[11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.]
[17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart.]
[ 9 For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language, So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah, To serve him shoulder to shoulder.’]
@Duran
Your interpretation is problematic on several levels, as it misinterprets key biblical passages, conflates apocalyptic imagery with speculative political theories, and projects unsubstantiated connections between unrelated texts.
The claim that the Tower of Babel incident represents God's intention to restrain a one-world government (or New World Order, NWO) misreads the passage in Genesis 11:1–9. The Tower of Babel narrative illustrates God's intervention to prevent human pride and self-reliance from leading to a rebellion against Him. By scattering humanity and confusing languages, God ensured the diversity of nations and cultures. However, there is no biblical basis to suggest this was meant to hold back a future political "NWO." The text speaks about human pride, not geopolitical governance.
The assertion that Babel’s scattering would only last until the 7th king (interpreted here as a specific era in Revelation) is speculative and not grounded in any biblical text. Babel’s significance is spiritual—demonstrating God’s sovereignty over human attempts to establish unity apart from Him—not prophetic of a political timeline.
The claim that the 8th king (Revelation 17:11), the Man of Lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2), and the Antichrist (1 John 2:18) are the same figure conflates different apocalyptic and eschatological concepts without textual evidence. These figures are described in distinct contexts:
· The 8th King (Revelation 17:11): Symbolizes a succession of earthly powers hostile to God, rooted in the seven preceding kings. This imagery refers to a worldly system of opposition to God, not an individual figure.
· Man of Lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:3–4): Paul describes a figure who exalts himself above God, but this description is more spiritual and theological, focusing on rebellion and apostasy rather than global political dominance.
· Antichrist (1 John 2:18): John uses the term "antichrist" to describe multiple opponents of Christ, both present and future. It is not tied to the 8th king or a specific political structure.
The attempt to merge these figures and link them to modern political entities or speculative future events reflects an interpretive leap not supported by Scripture.
The interpretation of Revelation as predicting an NWO under the 8th king demonstrates a misunderstanding of apocalyptic literature. Revelation uses symbolic language to address the struggles of the early Church, offering hope for God’s ultimate triumph over evil. The 8th king (Revelation 17:11–17) represents worldly powers opposing God’s kingdom, but there is no indication that this refers to a modern global government or political body.
· Revelation 13:5–7 describes the beast as being given authority to persecute the saints for 42 months, symbolizing a period of intense persecution. This timeframe is not meant to be taken literally but reflects a symbolic period of limited duration during which God’s people endure suffering.
· Revelation 17:13, 17 speaks of the kings giving their authority to the beast. This imagery emphasizes the unity of worldly powers in opposition to God but does not describe a literal transfer of power to a single modern entity.
The claim that the 8th king serves as God’s judgment on His people misreads 1 Peter 4:17, which states that judgment begins with the household of God. This passage refers to the refining and testing of believers through trials, not a political entity. The idea that the 8th king is the instrument of this judgment lacks scriptural support.
Similarly, 2 Thessalonians 1:7–10 describes Christ’s return to bring relief to believers and judgment on unbelievers. It does not mention the 8th king or suggest a timeline involving a world war or a New World Order. The focus is on Christ’s final victory, not on intermediate political developments.
The description of the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21:1 and 2 Peter 3:13 refers to the ultimate renewal of creation, where God dwells with His people in perfect unity. The interpretation that this involves the erasure of current cultures, languages, and histories misunderstands the text. These passages emphasize restoration and redemption, not the obliteration of human diversity. Zephaniah 3:9 ("a pure language") symbolizes the unity of worship, not a literal homogenization of human language or culture.
Revelation 3:10 refers to a promise of protection for the faithful in Philadelphia during a time of trial. It does not suggest a global judgment tied to a future political regime. The "hour of testing" is symbolic of tribulation that refines believers’ faith, not a specific period governed by an 8th king.
The invocation of contemporary political language (e.g., UN Secretary-General Guterres’ speech) to interpret biblical prophecy is anachronistic and speculative. Revelation and other apocalyptic texts were written to address the concerns of their original audiences and offer hope for all Christians, not to predict specific modern events.
In conclusion, your interpretation demonstrates a pattern of speculative associations, selective proof-texting, and misreading of apocalyptic symbols. The Tower of Babel, the 8th king, the Man of Lawlessness, and the Antichrist are distinct concepts within their respective contexts. The New Heavens and New Earth are about restoration, not cultural erasure. The idea of an NWO arising under the 8th king is unsupported by Scripture and reflects an overreach in interpretation. A proper understanding of these texts focuses on their spiritual and theological messages: God’s ultimate victory over evil, the call to perseverance, and the hope of eternal life with Him.
The 8th king is the same as the MOL and when the restraint holding back the MOL comes off at God's time for it, then the MOL/8th king will come to power to rule the NWO and under that rule there will be those proving to be God's true people by refusing the 8th king and there will be those that prove they do not belong to God by their supporting the 8th king.
[ 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his coming.]
Jesus will do away/kill the MOL when he (Jesus) comes. This means that the MOL is on hand, acting in his foretold role, at the time prior to Jesus coming.
It is clearly stated the before Jesus can come that the MOL has to come first.
In regard to the MOL coming and the foretold purpose, it says:
[4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]
Notice that connected to the MOL is a judgment from God. This means that those that believe all the powerful works, lying signs, etc. are misled to believe and support the MOL's claim. These people will perish/not be saved.
____________________
[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.” 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”] [19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]
There it shows that the beast is thrown into the fiery lake/done away with when Jesus comes. That means that that beast had to be on hand doing his foretold role prior to Jesus coming.
Also connected to that beast is a judgment from God and all those that believed the signs etc., so were misled to support/take the MOTB, these will also be killed/perish/not be saved when Jesus comes.
How likely is it that there are two separate entities on hand at the time Jesus comes, that he is said to do away with both at that time of his coming, that are both a cause for judgment by God, that results in the judgment of death for those that believe/mislead to support either entity?
Surely it is not reasonable that they are two separate entities, but instead they are one in the same.
Next, I will show how the KOTN is the same...
@Duran
The MOL is described by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3–12 as an eschatological figure characterized by rebellion, self-exaltation, and deception. The key details include:
This description focuses on spiritual rebellion and apostasy, not global political dominance.
The 8th king in Revelation 17:11–14 symbolizes a system or coalition of earthly powers opposed to God, arising out of the previous seven kings. The beast represents ongoing worldly opposition to God throughout history, culminating in a final manifestation of rebellion. The 8th king is associated with the "ten horns" (verse 12), which represent kings who align themselves with the beast for a brief period of power. The beast and its followers are ultimately defeated by the Lamb (verse 14), highlighting their collective opposition to Christ’s kingdom.
While the MOL and the beast share similarities (both oppose God and face judgment at Christ’s return), their contexts and descriptions suggest they are distinct. The MOL is a personal figure of spiritual rebellion, while the beast/8th king represents a political or systemic rebellion against God.
Revelation 14:6–12 describes the "hour of judgment" as a global proclamation calling humanity to worship God and reject the beast. The mark of the beast symbolizes allegiance to worldly systems opposed to God. The mark of the beast represents a spiritual choice, not merely political compliance. Those who align with the beast reject God’s sovereignty. Revelation 19:20–21 shows that the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at Christ’s return, signifying the end of their earthly influence.
This imagery does not equate the beast with the MOL but emphasizes their shared opposition to God. The MOL’s role is focused on apostasy and spiritual deception, while the beast operates as a worldly system of power.
The claim that the MOL and the beast/8th king must be the same entity because both are judged at Christ’s return is flawed. Similarities in their judgment do not necessitate identity. The MOL’s focus is on spiritual rebellion within the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:4), while the 8th king represents political and systemic rebellion on a global scale (Revelation 17:13–14). The beast/8th king is described in corporate and symbolic terms (a coalition of kings, horns, and powers), whereas the MOL is depicted as a singular, personal figure. Scripture frequently depicts multiple entities judged simultaneously (e.g., Satan, death, and Hades in Revelation 20:10–14). Shared judgment does not imply shared identity.
Your interpretation relies heavily on literal readings of apocalyptic imagery, leading to speculative conclusions. The "restraint" in 2 Thessalonians 2:6–7 refers to a divine or spiritual force preventing the MOL’s emergence. This is unrelated to political timelines or events leading to an NWO. Apocalyptic imagery in Revelation uses rich symbolism to convey theological truths. Reading these symbols as direct political predictions (e.g., the NWO) distorts their purpose.
Both 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation emphasize divine sovereignty and ultimate judgment. The MOL’s deception is a result of God allowing people to be deluded because they rejected the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10–12). This judgment is spiritual, targeting apostasy and rebellion within the Church. The beast’s judgment in Revelation reflects God’s justice upon worldly powers that oppose His kingdom. It is corporate and symbolic, not focused on individual apostasy. These judgments serve distinct purposes and address different aspects of rebellion against God.
In conclusion, the claim that the MOL and the 8th king are the same entity misreads their respective biblical contexts. While both are judged at Christ’s return, their roles, descriptions, and theological implications differ. The MOL represents spiritual rebellion and apostasy, while the 8th king symbolizes systemic and political opposition to God. Attempts to equate them oversimplify apocalyptic imagery, misinterpret prophetic texts, and impose speculative frameworks that detract from the texts’ true spiritual and theological messages.
Next, I will show how the KOTN is the same...
[15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),]
[ 31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.] [36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.]
[3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.]
Connected with the MOL is the apostasy. Also connected with the DT/KOTN is the apostasy. The KOTN is said to be in God's holy place and the MOL is said to be in God's temple both exalting themselves above everyone. (The holy place and temple are the same place.)
Clearly there can't be two different entities both in the same place at the same time exalting themselves even against each other and both leading an apostasy against God.
It is said that those knowing their God will prevail and not be led into apostasy. The apostasy is the taking the MOTB/supporting the 8th king/KOTN/MOL.
[the giving the power to the beast/8th king] = [putting the DT/KOTN in the holy place] = [MOL in the temple]
The holy place/temple is not a physical place nor is it a specific group of people claiming to be God's people.
The holy place/temple (God's house) is made up of all peoples (wheat) of the world who claim belief in him regardless of their inaccurate understandings/beliefs currently.
The people who are judged to perish/not be saved in connection with the MOL/apostasy are the same ones who are led into the apostasy connected with the KOTN, which is the same people who take the MOTB/support the 8th king. In their doing so they are rejecting God and his kingdom which is the only true apostasy there is. These people (weeds) are not God's people and they will perish/not be saved/will be cut of when Jesus comes.
The people who love truth/reject the MOL/apostasy are those that prevail and act effectivity against the KOTN/apostasy which is the same as those that refuse the MOTB/refuse the 8th king. These people are God's true peoples and will make up the GC and some from among them will rule with Jesus.
When God's people are living under the 8th king/MOL/KOTN rule they will be undergoing GT for not going along with him. It is in that sense that God's temple/holy place/house is being trampled upon. This is how judgment stars with God's house/his people. Then afterward judgment will come upon all those that made up the 8th king and supported him. This will occur when Jesus comes.
@Duran
In Daniel 11, the KOTN refers to a historical geopolitical power in conflict with the King of the South. While some interpret the latter parts of Daniel 11 as apocalyptic or eschatological, the context primarily deals with historical events leading up to the Maccabean period. The KOTN’s actions—such as profaning the sanctuary and removing the "constant feature" (Daniel 11:31)—are tied to Antiochus IV Epiphanes’ desecration of the Jerusalem temple. Attempts to link this directly to the MOL or the 8th King in Revelation are speculative and lack scriptural support.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4, the MOL is described as an eschatological figure who exalts himself above God and takes his seat in the temple of God. Paul’s focus is on a spiritual rebellion (apostasy) rather than a geopolitical figure. The temple mentioned here likely refers metaphorically to the Church or God’s spiritual dwelling among believers (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:16–17; Ephesians 2:21–22). There is no textual basis for equating this with the KOTN or the 8th King.
The assertion that the "holy place" in Daniel and the "temple" in 2 Thessalonians are identical conflates two different symbols. In Daniel, the "sanctuary" refers to the physical Jerusalem temple desecrated by Antiochus IV, whereas Paul’s "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians is a metaphorical expression of God’s dwelling. The claim that these must refer to the same entity is unfounded and contradicts the contexts of both texts.
Your interpretation oversimplifies and distorts the concept of apostasy and its connection to the Mark of the Beast. Paul’s reference to apostasy (a falling away) in 2 Thessalonians 2 describes a general spiritual rebellion against God, likely within the context of the Church. There is no mention of a geopolitical power like the 8th King or a symbolic mark such as the MOTB in this passage. The text focuses on the deception propagated by the MOL and the need for believers to remain steadfast.
The MOTB symbolizes allegiance to the beast and its system, often interpreted as a worldly power in opposition to God. However, linking this directly to the KOTN or MOL is speculative. Revelation uses apocalyptic imagery that is not meant to be rigidly tied to other biblical figures without clear textual connections.
The claim that there are only two outcomes—rejecting the MOTB or succumbing to apostasy—oversimplifies the complexity of apocalyptic literature. Revelation and other apocalyptic texts emphasize perseverance and faithfulness but do not present such rigid binaries tied to specific figures.
The interpretation of judgment starting with God’s house and extending to those who support the 8th King misreads the relevant passages. 1 Peter 4:17 refers to the refining trials believers undergo as part of their faith journey, not a specific period under the rule of an 8th King or geopolitical power. Peter emphasizes the spiritual preparation of believers rather than a timeline of apocalyptic events. 2 Thessalonians 1:7–10 describe Christ’s return in glory to bring relief to believers and judgment on unbelievers. There is no mention of the 8th King, KOTN, or a specific period of tribulation tied to these figures. Revelation 13 and Daniel 11 describe persecution and challenges for God’s people but in distinct contexts. Revelation 13 addresses the beast’s blasphemous rule and its demand for worship, while Daniel 11 reflects historical conflicts involving Antiochus IV. These texts are not describing the same event or figure.
The argument that the 8th King (Revelation 17), MOL (2 Thessalonians 2), and KOTN (Daniel 11) are identical is unsupported by the texts. In Revelation 17:11–17 the 8th King represents a culmination of earthly powers opposing God’s kingdom, tied to the imagery of Babylon. This is not an individual figure but a symbol of collective rebellion against God. In Daniel 11 the KOTN’s actions are tied to specific historical events (e.g., the desecration of the temple by Antiochus IV). Attempts to project this onto an eschatological figure like the 8th King or MOL are interpretive leaps. In 2 Thessalonians 2 the MOL is presented as a singular figure associated with spiritual rebellion and deception. There is no evidence connecting this figure to the 8th King or KOTN.
The argument that God’s temple/holy place refers to "all peoples of the world" (as wheat) misinterprets key texts. Ephesians 2:21–22 and 1 Peter 2:5 describe believers collectively as God’s spiritual temple, built on the foundation of Christ. They do not equate the temple with all peoples of the world indiscriminately. This parable in Matthew 13:38 distinguishes between wheat (believers) and weeds (unbelievers) within the world. It does not suggest that the world itself constitutes God’s temple. 1 Corinthians 3:16–17 emphasize the Church as God’s temple, where His Spirit dwells, it does not extend this designation to all humanity.
To sum up, your interpretation selectively conflates distinct biblical texts and figures, resulting in a distorted eschatology. The KOTN, MOL, 8th King, and other apocalyptic symbols are distinct in their contexts and cannot be forcibly merged into a single narrative. The temple/holy place is not a global entity but a spiritual reality for God’s people. Apostasy, tribulation, and judgment are themes that must be understood within their proper scriptural contexts, not through speculative and unsupported connections. A faithful interpretation of these passages requires attention to their historical, literary, and theological contexts rather than an overarching, forced synthesis.
[5 Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the stream and one on the other bank of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” Then one said to the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”]
The end of dashing to pieces comes to an end after the 42 months. It is during those 42 months that the chosen ones as well as the GC are experiencing the tribulation upon them for refusing to support the 8th king.
Jesus does away with the 8th king after the 42 months when he comes.
In Daniel, Jesus is also said to be the stone that crushes the image. The image as a whole represents the 8th king, just as the beast as a whole is the 8th king.
It is clear that when the 8th king comes to power and the time for the MOTB is here, there can on be two camps of people. One's who make up the 8th king and support him/take the mark, etc. And one's who refuse to take the mark/refuse to support him.
This is the basis of judgment that God uses to see who really belongs to him or who belong to Satan. Those that take the mark are judged to belong to Satan and will be killed off when Jesus comes. Those that refuse it are judged to belong to God and they will be part of the GC and some will rule with Jesus.
Because Jesus also does away with the MOL when he (Jesus) comes after the 42 months, this means that the MOL and 8th king come to their end at the same point and by the same means.
It makes no sense and could serve no purpose to claim that the MOL is a separate entity during the time the 8th king is ruling. And that this MOL is causing an apostasy that God allows to take place in order for people to be judged.
No one refusing the 8th king and living under his captivity and the tribulation that that will bring upon themselves for do so, none of these will be engaging in any separate apostasy with the MOL.
Only those that take the mark and support the 8th king would be ones that would be ones that would engage in any apostasy from the MOL. But what point and purpose would that serve, those that take the mark will be judged to be killed and so will those that engage in the apostasy from the MOL will perish/not be saved/will be killed.
The only thing that can make sense in this regard is if the apostasy having to do with the MOL is the supporting the 8th king, which is thereby rejecting God.
