Who is The Lord? (page 4)

Peter Fitz

Who is the Lord?

When are you deluded people going to wake up. There is no god and if there was, he would be either a psycopath or god with no power.

The Bible is a book of myth and so is every other holy book.

john.prestor

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

days of future passed

Long crazy post ahead. Swerve if you can.

Why not view it in another way?

You as a human, travel to another planet. After meeting some the natives, a really nice one walks up and introduces himself as A1. A1 is friendly, kind and very observant. Tries to help everyone out by mediating between them. You even find out, that he is great at healing. But at the end of the day he leaves. You go to the local bar and just as you are going in, all of the natives are leaving. One says to you "You better not be here after dark" Why? you ask. "Because A2 feels it's disrespectful to him if you drink after the sun goes down. And if anyone sees you do it, then the area has to get together and put you to death."

Puzzled you ask who's this A2 and how can he make people do this? The native whispers, "he's the one that made the planet and everything else here. A2 makes all the rules and if you break them, there are dire consequences. But of course, he does this because he loves us." He takes out a thick book hands it to you. "Better read this so you don't get into trouble." After looking thru some of it, there are basic rights and wrongs that don't seem bad. But it also has entries in it that are troubling. Seems A2 plays favorites. Pardoning some of his friends for rule breaking but killing off others for the same thing.

So you avoid the bar at night because you just never know what A2 might take offense at. You never see him, but all of the natives talk as if he was there listening.

One day some strange things happen. You ask the natives what is going on. They say "oh that is A3" Strange and miraculous things happen because of A3. How come I don't see A3? Well says the native "you never see A3, just like you don't see A2." How do you know there is an A2? The native says "Because A2 and A3 are the same. And we know A2 is real because we have this book." But anyone can write a book you say. The native shakes his head. "Really, all you have to do is ask A1. A1 is the same as A2 and A3."

How can that be you think. A1 was nice and kind yet A2 is all about rules and punishment. A3, well it just seems a catch all for strange things that happen.

So you talk to one of the natives about it. They just say the same thing over and over. So you ask where A1 is because you would to question him. Their answer is, "he's gone away to A2 and A3 because they all are just one anyway.

Now as science fiction, it works. You can make anything up and that is the way your world is. But in real life, the traits that jesus had, isn't reflected in God. Jesus was more about people and helping them, God is all about teaching everyone a lesson. A lesson so important he allows disease and parasites to destroy humans - young, old, and the inbetweens. God is alright with torture too. I don't see any reports of angels having saved people from the concentration camps - just regular old humans did that. Course it would have been faster and better if God had done something. But he is too determined to make sure we all know it down to the last starving child.

Of course that is the JW explanation of why the world is like this. Other religions have god wanting people suffer to make them a better person or testing them. Just as bad. Is that something you think Jesus would approve of? Course, his own dad ~~god friend~~ thought it would really great to show everyone that his son loved him enough to die a terrible death. So if they are all one, they all died.

I just realized that the 3 musketeers are all the same too.

cofty

what a bully you are buddy - TTWSYF

I am the one discussing facts and you and JWA are resorting to personal attacks and yet you call me a bully. That's pathetic.

My challenge remains unanswered. Please describe the trinity simply in their own words without resorting to esoteric Greek terms, without self-contradiction or heresy.

Calling it a 'mystery' or telling people they are just not 'spiritual' enough to understand it is not acceptable.

JWA says there are three people who make up one god. But when asked if that is the same as saying god is a team or a committee he just gets annoyed. Maybe you can help?

slimboyfat

Why is calling it a mystery unacceptable? Apart from you simply declaring it unacceptable.

cofty

Inventing a blatant contradiction and refusing to elaborate, other than to declare it a 'mystery', or asserting that other people are just not 'spiritual' enough to grasp it, is what most rational people call bullshit.

slimboyfat

If you declare “mystery” out of order then you rule out a lot of religion by default, since many religions teach that the human mind can not grasp the divine or the infinite.

And if you say “I won’t accept mystery as an answer” then you have said nothing more than simply “I don’t believe in religion”. Which is fair enough, but it doesn’t amount to an argument that will convince anyone who does not already agree with you.

It seems to me the basic disagreement is over the two positions:

1. The true nature of reality is something the human mind cannot grasp.

2. The human mind is capable of grasping the true nature of reality.

I am not aware of any way of settling the issue in favour of one or the other. I tend to hope that 2 is generally true, but I also happen to think that it implies the existence of God. If God does not exist then it seems safer to assume that 1 is true. So we have a paradox at the heart of human knowledge.

cofty

Those are interesting points but they don't illuminate the debate about the trinity.

There is nothing about reality that suggests the trinity. It is entirely a human invention — a piece of sophistry invented to cover the awkwardness of worshipping Jesus.

While I agree there is a deep mystery at the heart of human knowledge the trinity dogma does not deserve such respect. It is not so much deep as it is a 'deepity'.

slimboyfat

Well I would tend to oppose the Trinity on the grounds that it is contrary to scripture. I wouldn’t argue that it is wrong because it is “mysterious” or it doesn’t make sense in human terms. Because I believe there are things about God (or reality) that don’t make sense in human terms, and are mysterious. Such as how can God exist in himself, and what does that mean, and why does God allow suffering? I don’t know of a rational answer to these questions, but I don’t rule out the possibility that there is an answer which is beyond our grasp. Because why should everything about the universe be comprehensible to the human mind? Other than we would wish it to be. Which ironically in other contexts rationists would dismiss as merely wishful thinking.

cofty

I wouldn’t argue that it is wrong because it is “mysterious” or it doesn’t make sense in human terms.

It is 100% a human invention.

You are conflating things that are real that we can't understand, with something old men in silly hats invented out of whole-cloth that is self-contradictory.

Calling something religious doesn't imbue it with special qualities of mystery. The emperor is still butt naked.

Who is The Lord?

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