by refiners fire 26 Replies latest watchtower bible
In this parable, Jesus Christ was referring to "the kingdom of the heavens" with its counterfeit in mind."well blow me over to.
I don't think I read that book since 1975. I was not exactly paying attention either.Had other things on my mind at the ripe old age of teenhood. LOL!
One thing is for sure RF, your eyes are a sight better then mine. SHEESH! I had to copy the thread, paste it to word, blow it up, and THEN read it. Your snippits are set in 7.5 font.I hurt myself.
Certain epiphytic orchids of the tropical rain forest produce the world's smallest seeds weighing only 35 millionths of an ounce.
LOL! Imagine the look on the apostles faces,scratching their heads, not listening to a darn thing Jesus said
"What the fu*K is a tropical rain forest?"
Thanks for posting that Ozzie: I had just looked up illustrations in the Insight book and was about to post the same thing. You're right, Freddie's legacy does live on. I guess no one from the current Governing Body has the gumption to overrule the former 'oracle' of the WTS and his ridiculous interpretation!
LOL plmcrzy, very well said!
Cheers
Artful
Plum.
The other week Francois posted a thread about people who posted threads with large spaces between their paragraphs and quotes. He was of the opinion that persons doing such things were full of their own self importance and put the pregnant pauses into their posts to make their words weigh more heavily upon the minds of their hearers. I contemplated whether what he said was so, and if, in fact, I was guilty of this myself. Since then I have been messing with my posts trying to find ways to compact them and make my own words appear less significant than they actually are.Theres a bit of trial and error as I find the balance between readability and the appearance of overselfimportance.
: QUOTE: “While some may argue that a mustard grain is not "the tiniest" of all seeds, orchid seeds being smaller, and that it does not actually become "a tree," it must be borne in mind that Jesus was speaking in terms familiar to his audience. As far as Jesus' listeners were concerned, the mustard grain was indeed among the tiniest seeds planted,”
In otherwords, Jesus lied to pander to the ignorance of the masses. Just like dub leaders. Well, after all, they ARE "followers" of Jesus, so I guess lying is ok to pander to the masses.
"If the masses are ignorant, it's ok to lie to them." Isn't this basic Watchtower Policy?
Hmmmmmmm.
Farkel
Jesus was speaking in terms familiar to his audience. As far as Jesus' listeners were concerned, the mustard grain was indeed among the tiniest seeds planted,”
Meister. This matter of the size of the mustard seed is becoming, in itself, a key doctrinal matter and I feel some points need developing. The Dub Bible itself renders the passage ( Matthew 13 v 32) : " .....Which is, in fact, the tiniest of all the seeds"
Allow me to emphasize certain words there--
"Which is, IN FACT , THE tiniest off ALL the seeds"
Now you yourself, meister, would well be aware that when Jesus Christ says "IN FACT" he does NOT mean that what he is saying is Factually accurate, rather it is accurate within the parameters of the prebiases and degree of botanical knowledge of his listeners. Not only this, but When Christ says ALL the seeds, again, he does not include the seeds of South American countries that his hearers have never heard of. If he did that he might have to explain the geography of the world and reveal knowledge that it was not Gods " due time" to be revealed.This is, in fact, why he did what he did.
I hope this clarifies matters for any of those who were bamboozled in any degree
..."In otherwords, Jesus lied to pander to the ignorance of the masses".....
Natrurally, ....He had their best interests at heart.
RF,
My argument was never that he didn't have his followers best interests in his heart. I never even implied that. Jesus' motives was not any part of my argument.
: Which is, IN FACT , THE tiniest off ALL the seeds"
So, this begs the question, if Jesus said the mustard seed was the tiniest of ALL seeds, was it a FACT, or was it not? Is a FACT a FACT based upon the content of the audience, or is a fact a fact, despite the audience?
If you hate Jews (and of course, I'm not claiming you do) and I say to you, "it is a FACT that Jews are all cheats and liars," (when it is obvious they are not), is it ok for me to say that and claim a little hyperbole when challenged? If I claim to be the very own first-born son of GOD and say this, can I also excuse it away when caught by saying, "well, I was only using a little hyperbole." I don't think so.
: Now you yourself, meister, would well be aware that when Jesus Christ says "IN FACT" he does NOT mean that what he is saying is Factually accurate,
Bottom line: when Jesus says, "in FACT, he doesn't mean what he says." Yeah, I'll follow that guy anywhere with logic like that.
:...rather it is accurate within the parameters of the prebiases and degree of botanical knowledge of his listeners.
Yeah, but Jesus was the SON OF GOD and knew just about everything. You mean to tell me he couldn't have said the mustard seed was the "tiniest seed in this part of the earth," and therefore not lie about the true facts? Why not. He would have still made his point, would he have not?
: Not only this, but When Christ says ALL the seeds, again, he does not include the seeds of South American countries that his hearers have never heard of.
Right. That's because he didn't KNOW about the other seeds in the rest of the earth and Continents. Jesus was just another guy who claimed spiritual authority. When Satan took him up to the "highest mountain" so Jesus could see ALL the Kingdoms of the Earth, did Jesus say, "er, Satan, this planet is a sphere. I made it, you big dummy." No! Tell us all how Jesus could see ALL the kingdoms of the earth from any point ON the earth? Was this account figurative? Yes? Then Satan was also figurative, too. Do you see where this is all leading? Even if Jesus existed, this story would HAVE to be yet another parable.
: If he did that he might have to explain the geography of the world and reveal knowledge that it was not Gods " due time" to be revealed.This is, in fact, why he did what he did.
Yeah, right. For some strange reason, God doesn't want us to know that there are seeds in some other location smaller than the mustard seed. That makes perfect sense for God to withhold this knowledge. Sure it does. The gymnastics of Biblio-excusogetics has no bounds.
You know, that is my favorite argument of yours so far. Did you know that the Greeks and other Civilizations already KNEW the earth was a sphere when Isaiah said it was a "circle" some several hundred years before Jesus came about. Jesus came along several hundred years later, and if he knew anything about the Greeks, he not only knew the earth was a sphere, he knew that the mustard seed was not the smallest seed in the world. He WAS the Son of God(tm), you know. Would God have his only begotten son tell a lie to a crowd, no matter how benign that lie might be? If yes, explain your answer.
We have to go by what was actually SAID in the Bible, not by what we THINK they said or meant to say to satisfy crowds. This is especially true with the words of Jesus as recorded some 30-70 years after his death and in which NONE of the original documents have been found.
Bottom line:
a) Is the mustard seed in FACT the smallest of all the seeds on this earth? Yes or no.
b) Did Jesus say the mustard seed was in FACT the smallest of all seeds on this earth? Yes or no.
FACT: b) is true. It's in the Bible. FACT: a) is false this is a fact.
Therefore, Jesus lied (for whatever reason), and all the excuses cannot change that fact.
By the way, I duly respect the fact that you've stepped forward with some fine research and done the hard work to help inform people, Refiners Fire. I immensely respect you for the effort it takes. I know what kind of caring and effort it takes, and my hat is off to you, sir.
Farkel
ok now, go out side and play!
..."If he did that he might have to explain the geography of the world and reveal knowledge that it was not Gods " due time" to be revealed.This is, in fact, why he did what he did".... (I really should learn to insert Smileys so its clear Im being a smart ass)
QUOTE..."As far as Jesus' listeners were concerned, the mustard grain was indeed among the tiniest seeds planted,”....
Now there is a very important word in this staement too, and it is this word... " PLANTED".
I guess that covers them huh? In the time of Christ noone went about Planting South American orchids... Anything to slip the noose off their neck. (Plum, Im coming with you.)
Since we are tossing words about here, I thought that I'd throw in my 2 cents!
I think we may be making a little too much of how the NWT (read: Freddie) renders this text. First of all, here is how Matt 13:31-32 is rendered in the NIV Bible:
31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
If Jesus said that it is the smallest of all your seeds, isn't he simply saying that the mustard seed was the smallest of all the seeds actually used by farmers and gardners at that time?
As for the New World MisTranslation rendering of this verse as 'in fact', I would have a hard time upholding their translation to 'prove' that what Jesus actually said was 'in fact'!
Farkel, you are right in saying that he could have made his point just as easily without resorting to a statement that went against the true facts. Based on the above rendering of this text I would suggest that he quite likely did.
Cheers
Artful
