I should have added - what no man is able to number.
Official Increase in the Number of Jehovah's Witnesses You Shouldn't Trust
by David_Jay 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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David_Jay
Thisismein1972,
"The great crowd are the increasing number of 'anointed' ones."
If I am not mistaken, I think they technically already tried this approach and this is what got them facing the current paradox.
Before announcing the "great crowd" fulfillment in the 1930s, the Witnesses were already facing a growth problem that led to 90,000-plus partaking participants in the Memorial by the end of the 1920s. Rutherford's revealing the "great crowd" in the mid 1930s was a way to deal with this.
You see, since the time of Russell, the Watchtower theology has always been teaching that there is a "remnant" of true Christians in the last days, the final sealing of the last of the 144,000. New Testament eschatology often employs heavy wordplay on Hebrew texts that speak of a "remnant of Israel" being "saved" such as at Romans 11:5. Considering themselves the "new" and now only true "Israel," and claiming theirs is a" restoration" of "true first-century" Christianity, there has never been a time that the center of the JWs has not be founded on the existence of this "remnant." These are now the last days because only a "remnant" of Christians is left, and the reason the "remnant" is present is because it is now truly the last days. In Watchtower theology one can never exist without the other.
But having 90,000-plus partakers was not a "remnant" of 144,000 Christians in 1920. It was a majority. Something had to be done since neither the "remnant" nor "last days" beliefs could be moved and neither the literal 144,000 teaching in the mind of a literalist. For then how could you ever have a true remnant if there was no definite number? So Rutherford developed the second class of Christians to explain the increasing "remnant." You might say this 2nd group of Christians is also the first time the Watchtower employed an overlapping 2 generations model, so to speak.
These are ad-hoc fixes, however. Saying a new overlapping number makes the original number retain its original qualities doesn't work. This is because of the time factor. The end has to come, and the original group has to be here to witness it otherwise it was never the original group to begin with. A "remnant" can only, by definition, dwindle.
But since the original members of the "remnant" are no longer here and they refuse to admit the end is it coming, the next best thing has been to say that people with the same earmarks make up the same "type" and thus the same original group is "still with us" (though we know this doesn't for rock bands or singing groups). As long as the same "type" of members exist, say the JWs, then the original group has yet to depart from the world scene.
This would push the "remnant" today up to over 98,000 (and mathematically over 144,000 to be honest), losing the quality of being only a "few remaining ones." And if they are no longer this "remnant," then it cannot be the end either.
The "generation" has been stretched this way, and now the "remnant" is (for the second time) losing its qualifications as such. They have pretty much cherry-picked Scripture to death and are left with a dilemma. They cannot escape the need for a "remnant," so they must again change their definition of "remnant" as they have for " generation. " The two-class tier system of Christians that Rutherford put forward did not work. The "remnant" grew regardless.
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OneGenTwoGroups
How the holy spirit works according to Watchtower dogma:
- The holy spirit tells the anointed to partake
- The holy spirit doesn't tell other sheep to NOT partake ... OOPS!
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OneGenTwoGroups
One more thing:
The actual partaker count is much higher than what is reported. In our area of the world, we never count partakers that we don't know at the Memorial. I'm sure it's the same for most areas.
I've actually been in the back of an auditorium debating with other elders whether to count a baptized JW lady as a partaker because she was "inactive". We didn't put her in our report.
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sir82
It is inevitable, perhaps before the next decade, that there will be a "new light" teaching that the 144,000 number in Revelation is symbolic.
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prologos
Timi1972: How about this one. By looking at this scripture we can evidently conclude that the great crowd are the increasing number of "anointed" ones.
Close, but not quite right. instead:
The members of the great crowd are the 12 tribes that the 144 000 come out of. The real sealed ones (only known to the sealing angels) are a rarer species than the garden variety partakers. to prove:
Take the story of the coveted positions to the left and right of Jesus, 2 out of 12, making the non-sealed hopeful partakers the symbolic "10", all the earthly ones.
You dont want to be a ruler with Christ anyway, if the axe awaits your neck. Rev.20. Perhaps only ~200 witnesses were thus executed (guillotined) since 1914, they are the only ones to meet that stricter criterium. Here is the fix:
The wt partakers, including the GB* are not the anointed overlapping generation, but are the survivors of Armageddon instead. they must be survivors, to not pass away before the end. They, with all believers, are "Spiritual Israelites", aka the 12 tribes, the great crowd members. who all should partake. 144k? Only the angels know,, and they are not telling (yet). The fix:
Let all partake, bring on the wine. 144k is literal but a "sacred secret". sacred and scary.
* their expertise and their staff's is need to jump start the paradise. now, if only there really was a talking snake, walking on water--
p.s. The overall number are not surprising, it is wt's interpretation of them, over ~100 years that is wrong, as usual.
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flipper
" For one thing, why so many unsound members " ? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree- the WT Society leaders are unsound so they produce unsound members. Pretty simple.
" What kind of religion produces thousands of people like this " ? A religion that PRETENDS to be a religion but in reality is a real estate/ marketing company giving out false hopes through mind control masquerading as a religion for financial purposes.
" How does the Church know that these people have a mistaken view and what causes it"? WT leaders really don't know anything in reality. All they know is their false teachings which manipulate rank & file JW's to THINK that more of them have a " heavenly calling. " WT Society HAD to open up the heavenly calling to more JW's for basically selfish reasons- more of their Governing Body leaders were dying off being replaced by younger men of age 50 + who previously did not claim to have a hope of heavenly life. So about in 2005 WT Society TOTALLY changed their views of the heavenly calling being closed up in the early 1930's and opened it back up on their own to accommodate their Governing Body members having the alleged " heavenly calling " . It wasn't set up by God or any inspiration- just a random decision made by leaders of a cult to push their agenda of " end times " and control.
" Is this a professional opinion, and if not, how could they even say such a thing about people " ? No, WT Society leaders are NOT professional in judging people. They DO make a profession out of controlling 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses through mind control- intentionally - in order to get control of JW's finances, lives, friendships, and any other material asset that can be used by WT leaders. They do this with persuasive tactics using FEAR and GUILT to manipulate JW's into thinking WT leaders are special and appointed by God- which is a lie, they are NOT appointed by God - they are leaders of an evil cult bent on controlling people and breaking up families. You ask HOW they can say what they do ? Easy- they're leaders of a mind control cult- they can say anything they want in a deceptive way in order to get rank & file JW's to obey them and do what they want. Think of the cult leader " Neegan " on the current " Walking Dead " episodes. Perhaps not with that much violence- but the psychological manipulation is exactly the same. Use FEAR and GUILT to control people and you've got them under your thumb. That is what WT leaders are good at doing- controlling people's lives. Period
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prologos
Take the story of the coveted positions to the left and right of Jesus, 2 out of 12, making the non-sealed hopeful partakers the symbolic "10", all the earthly ones.
David Jay, here is the alternate fix based on the above:
The 1444k is literal, but represents only 2 out of 12 of the "anointed". There are 6 times more possible wt partakers than there are real ones, those that "go everywhere the lamb goes" ( the ones elbowing Jesus). You could have 864 000 partakers before you run out of anointed places. now, about that snake--.
ps: let the 2 ladies have their say, finally, who says ladies have no say in wt land.
p.s. 2: Even in the original last supper, aka memorial, there had to be two favoured, close position to jesus, and may be one across the table, furthest away, for Judas, the one dipping at the same time. 144k, a subgroup of many anointed.
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DesirousOfChange
Remember that over twice as many people attend the Memorial as there are active Witnesses. Therefore, the Witnesses could legitimately - although lamely - argue that the increase in partakers is due to non-Witnesses in attendance wrongly concluding they have the heavenly hope and so they partake and are counted. .
Maybe this has been addressed. I have not read all 5 pages of comments yet.
In the past, the directions from "Mother" was that strangers attending (new guests) were NOT to be counted if they partake of the Memorial Emblems. The BOE must know the person and if they do not know them, they should inquire if they are from another Cong, etc.
Edited to add: I see that OneGenTwoGroups also commented on this. That is official WT policy.
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prologos
Many partakers are acting on a mistaken belief about the mistaken wt belief system. but even then -1 x -1 does not = +1. The increase in numbers reflects the increase in mistakers that is bound to happen with time, and their unscriptural practice to invite the world at large.