No Evidence Against Iraq, You Say?

by DakotaRed 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Hillary:

    Thanks for your reply. Since you are bowing out, I'll indulge myself in a reply to you, but wont expect a further round of debate.

    You mentioned that the UN acted without mandate in Yugoslavia. I confess to confusion as to your meaning, for it was NATO that acted in Yugoslavia, without UN mandate. The UN did not act, because the security council knew that Russia would veto any authorization of military action. Yes the situation there was one of local ethnic cleansing. One would think that the Iraq situation, involving possible weapons of mass destruction, would galvanise the UN to greater levels of action. Accountants do have an annoying expectation for figures to add up (occasionally we're surprised when they do). Maybe the UN needs more accountants.

    the Iraq regime say that they have complied with all the UN resolutions!

    They do indeed. All, what, seventeen of them now? I'm reminded of the old joke about English policemen: "Halt, or I'll say halt again!" The UN version is "comply with our resolution, or we'll make another resolution!" Have they complied though? Let me requote 1441:

    not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles

    I'm sure you're aware that Mr. Blix' latest report contained the finding of a previously undeclared unmanned aerial vehicle. This was not declared within the 30 day deadline. The Iraqi regime is thus shown to be in breach of 1441. I can't understand what's so difficult to understand about that. And again, the US/UK is under no obligation whatsoever to present evidence that Iraq has breached the resolutions. Iraq was under obligation to present "an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure" because as 1441 said " Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991)". You could say that Iraq has been proven guilty for twelve years, and was given a final chance to demonstrate their reformation. They didn't take it.

    Why is it then that in this situation, with the same regime in place, the US/UK have lost the confidence of many of the UN member nations in this latest military venture? Have they suddenly become self-serving cowards or are they proceeding with prudent caution?

    A question also phrased as "how could the US have lost so much goodwill in a year?" I wouldn't call them "self-serving cowards." I would opine that they are acting in their own self-interest, as all people and nations do. Put quite simply, the governments that have apparently "lost confidence" do not consider themselves to be at risk from Saddam Hussein, while they do see an advantage to their own situation in opposing the US/UK position. I think this is especially true of the recent actions of the French government, who have seen a chance to increase French influence in the UN and the EU at the expense of the despised Anglos by putting themselves at the head of the anti-war faction. I also think that most of the confidence and sympathy offered after 9-11 was of a shallow and transitory emotional nature. Once "compassion fatigue" set in, it became business as usual i.e. self-interest with a liberal splash of Anti-Americanism thrown in.

    One other thing to consider: the UN estimates that sanctions have resulted in the premature deaths of around 700,000 children. About 5,000 children a month, in other words. Those sanctions will remain in effect while the UN bickers about inspections. Give the inspectors another month? 5,000 children. Six months? 30,000 children. The UN is excellent with statistics. But remove the Iraqi regime, and the need for sanctions is removed. Remove the regime, and the UN and the West will be able to freely send aid to the Iraqi people.

    "But a war will cost thousands of lives", is the response. So will the status quo. Remember those 5,000 children a month. It is not known how many lives a war will cost. This war will be different to the Gulf War, because weapons are vastly different now than they were then. 90% of weapons will be "smart" in the upcoming war, as opposed to 10% in the Gulf War, for example.

    In all of this debate going on, it is quite remarkable how little the question: "what is best for the Iraqi people?" is asked. Well, 5,000 children dying a month is not very good for them, is it? Being gassed and shot in large numbers by a power-mad dictator isn't so wonderful either. Being reduced to disease-ridden poverty by UN sanctions doesn't really fall into the category of "best" either.

    Perhaps the next time Mr. Chirac shows that the Vichy spirit is thriving in the Paris of 2003, with absurd statements like "war is always the worst option", he might give a thought to the 15,000 children who have died prematurely because the UN doesn't have the balls to enforce its own resolutions.

    Expatbrit

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge
    I'm reminded of the old joke about English policemen: "Halt, or I'll say halt again!" The UN version is "comply with our resolution, or we'll make another resolution!"

    That about sums it up... the UN is an obsolete, ineffective, money draining organization.... what a bunch of losers. Excellent post EXPATBRIT.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Expat,

    You make some powerful points in your essay which have given me much food for thought. I agree that in the cut and thrust of this whole issue we have indeed forgotten perhaps the most important thing, the Iraqi children.

    Yes, as to NATO the US & the UN in Yugoslavia, I am you may gather part of the growing school of thought that actually NATO acted with complicit, rather than explicit approval of the UN starting with UN resolution 713 I think it was? The UN had run out of money and could not even pay its civil servants on the ground and was in disarray and looked to NATO to enforce its mandates for it as it had neither the resources nor the man-power in the region to do so. It is a long time since I read up on this but I did remember reading an article that outlined the chronology of this situation and the UN were and are being accused of overt complicity with NATO in the bombing of Yugoslavia who used UN ground forces to help identify its targets. The UN would never have accessed a clear mandate with China and Russia using its veto and yet its mandates were achieved with little loss of prestige. Yes, politics is a dirty business. I apologize for confusing the issue, which I clearly did, but I am quite sure as the months progress you will discover that the UN acted without mandate by complicitly allowing, aiding and abetting NATO and the US to clean its back yard for it.

    The Iraqi defense for its unmanned aerial vehicle is that it did not contravene 1441 as it was never armed, was never part of a weapons program and that its ballistic missiles, even though already disarmed are being melted down to make little model Saddam’s. This is the official reason that Blix did not report its existence :

    Although the newly designed RPV should have been declared, he said, it was not certain it would be proscribed since it still may be just a "prototype."

    You note:

    Put quite simply, the governments that have apparently "lost confidence" do not consider themselves to be at risk from Saddam Hussein, while they do see an advantage to their own situation in opposing the US/UK position. I think this is especially true of the recent actions of the French government, who have seen a chance to increase French influence in the UN and the EU at the expense of the despised Anglos by putting themselves at the head of the anti-war faction. I

    Expat, the French have seen first hand the risks of Muslim backlash in their own country. I cannot agree with your assessment here. It seems to me that the issue is far more complicated than you seem to acknowledge. The French sent over 25,000 troops to the Gulf War and proved that while "war is always the worst option" it is an option that they are prepared to live with if they have to. Chirac's own statement is that he is against the war 'for the time being'. He wishes to use every avenue possible to avert one and I believe he is to be respected for that. After all it is not only France that opposes an immediate invasion, many other countries outside the European theatre simultaneously reached a similar conclusion.

    Anyway, not much you and I can do about this but talk….lol The war will happen, and I believe a heavy price will be paid for it in the years to come, both in loss of life and the higher taxes which will keep you busy and me broke…lol Can I go home now?

    HS

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Hillary:

    Can I go home now?

    I hope you're not staying at work on a Friday evening just to post a reply to me on the discussion board! Go home! (I'll make it a resolution if I have to....lol)

    Expatbrit (taxes? don't get me started!)

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    lol....Nahhh, I am fortunate enough to work from home and as for resolutions well, my wife could teach the UN a trick or two.

    Have a great weekend Expat - HS

  • ISP
    ISP

    We already discussed the evidence.............

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/25/46170/1.ashx

    ISP

  • dubla
    dubla

    h.s.-

    dont know if youre still keeping up or not, but i thought id reply to your post (i was away until today).

    As we speak missiles that might be used to carry chemical or nuclear warheads are being melted down in compliance with UN resolutions.

    i wasnt aware that the al samuud 2 missles were capable of carrying chemical or nuclear warheads. please provide info links on this, if it is the case.

    Complied he has done to a degree, this is provable, complying he is also doing to a degree, this too is provable.

    ive never denied this....he has complied to a degree, but lets notice the statement to which you are replying:

    me:

    it is truly hard to fathom that there are actually intelligent people out there naive enough to think that saddam willingly complied and fully destroyed all of his wmd.

    you see, i am only contending that you would have to be foolish to believe he has fully destroyed all of his wmd. as i stated previously, it is a fact that he had them, and it is a fact that he has not produced the documentation proving their destruction. now, either he forgot to document their disposal (maybe he didnt think it was important), or he still has them. its so simple, yet you try to complicate it. the rest of your post has to do with issues of saddams immediate threat, which is a completely different topic than what my post addressed. i still stand by my stance that youd have to be pretty darn naive to think he doesnt still have wmd. you want evidence of such, and as i said, youve already got it in front of you.

    aa

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hi Dubla,

    Yes, I am still reading.

    it is truly hard to fathom that there are actually intelligent people out there naive enough to think that saddam willingly complied and fully destroyed all of his wmd.

    I cannot see on this thread where anybody has stated that Saddam has fully destroyed the huge cache of weapons of mass destruction that the US sold him some years ago. If you read my posts they focus on the lack of evidence as of todays date that they still exist. I have also stated in pervious posts that I have no doubt that Saddam does possess them, but that the plagiarized and fraudulent 'evidence' presented by Colin Powell as 'irrefutable evidence' was quite the opposite and was actually the catalyst that raised many peoples suspicions as to the US true agenda in the region.

    As to the carrying capability of the medium to long range Al-Samoud missiles I am no military expert, in fact quite the opposite, though I did hear a CNN report some weeks ago that stated that these missiles ( in fact any medium to long range missiles ) can be equipped with tipped chemical and nuclear warheads. Am I wrong about this? It does not strike me as a terribly important point anyway as the UN forced compliance in their destruction for obvious reason, but if their payload abilities are important perhaps you might provide a link to prove so….lol

    Dubla, the whole world is clearly divided on these issues for the reasons stated throughout many of these threads the past few days. This matter will be analyzed by history after this war is over and I believe it will be viewed as a stupid tragedy that could have been averted by sensible diplomacy and a sustainable US foreign policy, which has traditionally caused more problems in the Middle East than it has cured. People will not be arguing about what kind of warheads certain missiles are capable of carrying, but will be asking, ‘What the hell went wrong?’

    Armies can be defeated, but ideologies cannot be defeated by bombs and saber’s, in fact quite the opposite. History shows that they are strengthened and pushed very rapidly into the realms of extremism by it. There will be a backlash after this war that most people do not seem to want to think about. A backlash that your children will have to contend with. The US/UK/Spain hope to make the world a safer place by the action that it is now about to take. I somehow doubt it, and it seems that many millions of ‘intelligent’ but ‘naïve’ persons world-wide seem to have the same fears.

    As I seem to be repeating myself ad nauseum in my posts it is obvious that my points are not being clearly made, and as I can do not better I will, as Prince Charles might say, bugger oorff now!

    Best regards - HS

  • dubla
    dubla

    hs-

    I cannot see on this thread where anybody has stated that Saddam has fully destroyed the huge cache of weapons of mass destruction that the US sold him some years ago. If you read my posts they focus on the lack of evidence as of todays date that they still exist.

    yes, i realize that was your point, and really the only point i was making in return is that the evidence you wish to see is already there. imo (and the unanimous opinion of the u.n. security counsel), its up to saddam to prove he destroyed them.

    . I have also stated in pervious posts that I have no doubt that Saddam does possess them

    then you are not one of the naive people i speak of. there are posters on this forum who truly believe he no longer possesses them, which is the fact i find unfathomable. again, i believe the burden of proof lies with hussein, as if he in fact destroyed them, he would have no problem proving as much. it would be a very simple process......show the documentation. why should it be up to us to dig through the barn full of hay and prove those needles are in fact still there?

    As to the carrying capability of the medium to long range Al-Samoud missiles I am no military expert, in fact quite the opposite, though I did hear a CNN report some weeks ago that stated that these missiles ( in fact any medium to long range missiles ) can be equipped with tipped chemical and nuclear warheads. Am I wrong about this? It does not strike me as a terribly important point anyway as the UN forced compliance in their destruction for obvious reason, but if their payload abilities are important perhaps you might provide a link to prove so….lol

    honestly i was just curious, because i hadnt heard that. they may indeed have those capabilities, but no, its not important to the discussion really. i probably made it sound like a point of contention, but i didnt mean it that way.

    . I somehow doubt it, and it seems that many millions of ‘intelligent’ but ‘naïve’ persons world-wide seem to have the same fears.

    having fears about the consequences of war does not make you naive, and i certainly hope you dont think that was ever my stance. i wasnt trying to make blanket statements about the antiwar crowd......the only people my "naive" label fits are those that think saddam doesnt in fact have wmd......hopefully we are clear on that.

    As I seem to be repeating myself ad nauseum in my posts it is obvious that my points are not being clearly made

    well, dont feel bad, because i am doing the same, lol.

    aa

  • dubla
    dubla

    amac-

    Now if you happen to have a synopsis of the WMD that were there and that have not been proven to have been dismanteled, I would be interested in seeing it.

    i said id get back to you on this. this isnt a full reply, but i wanted to show you this one paragraph from an article dated today, as a start:

    Saddam, in a statement read by an Iraqi television announcer, reiterated his stance that Iraq once had weapons of mass destruction but has since destroyed them.

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/sprj.irq.main/index.html

    aa

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