Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-23-03 WT Study

by blondie 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • reporter
    reporter
    It would be interesting to see some Doctor Who aliens trying out Earth religions, or humans trying out alien religions in some book or other.

    WITNESS OF THE DALEKS

    Jehovah's Dalek #1: HEL-LO MAD-AM. MAY WE TALK TO YOU A-BOUT GOD?

    Women at door: No, thank you. I'm rather busy right now with... er...
    the ironing.

    Jehovah's Dalek #2: WE WILL TALK TO YOU A-BOUT GOD. PROSELYTISE!
    PROSELYTISE! WE WILL PROSELYTISE! PROSELYTISE!

    Jehovah's Dalek #1: YOUR SPIRITUAL VISION IS IMPAIRED!

    Thanks, Blondie! As usual, what is said between the lines or left out is the most telling part of the article. As this article reinforces, the WTS only is a numbers-based orgainsation, caring only about spreading seeds in quantity, under any circumstances. I mean, anyone can fling massive amounts of bullshit at a wall, and, inevitably, some will stick! When you've got all that seed (WTS publications) flying everywhere, who cares about the plants that result? It just goes to show how the WTS is further regressing into a publishing corporation, only interested in creating and spreading more and more seed...without regard as to what is growing, or rotting...

  • acsot
    acsot

    Thanks Blondie! I will thankfully be missing Sunday's meeting, but I was at the Service Meeting and Ministry School last night - took my mother who said she wanted to go (basically to get out of the house).

    Well, the meeting was more of the same "get out more, do more, it's Memorial season, those who can should be pioneering". One elder's wife said that those who couldn't auxiliary pioneer (50 hours/month for any non-dubs reading), should try and be "half a pioneer" - 25 hours a month, then if someone else was "half a pioneer" for the month then that would make up 50 hours and we'd have a whole extra auxiliary pioneer! I was ready to hurl and thought I better get my mother away from these meetings (she's not well, has had several angina attacks lately) as fast as possible – guilt at not doing “more” is the last thing she needs right now.

    Well, on the way home in the car, she wasn't feeling well again and said, "this is it for me, I'm too old to be going out to these meetings, maybe in the summer I can go once in awhile". I told her that Jehovah was looking at people's hearts, and knew she loved him, so she had absolutely nothing to worry about. I then mentioned a couple of examples of her friends who have suffered at what the "loving" elders have done to them, and said that there was no way I could believe that Jehovah would ignore kind-hearted, generous people of other religious persuasions yet “save” such ignorant, selfish people as So-and-So and So-and-So just because they called themselves JWs. She agreed (!). I told her that if she felt the need we could have the phone hook-up for her and she can listen to the meetings. So fortunately I am now basically meeting free! I may attend occasionally just so mum won’t die of a heart attack if she feels I’m “apostate”; her accepting that might just be a bit of a stretch for her!

    I do feel bad for those who still believe that mechanistic, cold-hearted ritual like adding up numbers on slips of paper is what God requires. I also have another point from the meeting which I will post separately under beliefs – kind of a question/observation – so, Blondie, Jgnat or any others, if you have any insights I’ll appreciate it!

    I think I’ll entitle it Dinah: what bad association?

  • blondie
    blondie

    Hey VS. Good phrase!

    'we're the extra special annointed class and the great crowd get to drink our holy bath water' mentality

    Good example. JWs talk the talk but don’t walk the walk. I wonder what your aunt’s excuse would be?

    An example: When my mom was disfellowshiped she took care of my 'unbelieving' gran when she was sick, helped with meals, did housecleaning and slept over until gran got well in sharp contrast to one of my aunts (married to an elder) who didn't get around to visiting her mom for days even though she lived 5 minutes away! So there's a load of talk about love and no action to back it up

    Good comments, reporter. How did you know that I am a big Doctor Who fan. We don’t get it much in my area any more. I can hear those Daleks now.

    It just goes to show how the WTS is further regressing into a publishing corporation

    Actually, the WTS has always been just a publishing corporation and the FDS is a myth. A business with no heart.

    Hey, Ascot. I was ready to hurl too after this.

    One elder's wife said that those who couldn't auxiliary pioneer (50 hours/month for any non-dubs reading), should try and be "half a pioneer" - 25 hours a month, then if someone else was "half a pioneer" for the month then that would make up 50 hours and we'd have a whole extra auxiliary pioneer! I was ready to hurl.

    I’m glad your mother is not trying to kill herself getting to the meetings. Good for you too.

    I posted once on Dinah. You might notice that Judah married a Canaanite woman but no one got on his case about his associations.

    Insight II

    p. 123 Judah
    During this time Judah married the daughter of the Canaanite Shua. By her he had three sons, Er, Onan, and Shelah. The youngest, Shelah, was born at Achzib.—Ge 38:1-5.

    Blondie

  • Wolfgirl
    Wolfgirl

    "Keep in mind that there is no record in the Bible of how many hours, placements, Bible studies, etc., that the apostles spent in the ministry. What is recorded is how they lived their lives and tried to imitate Christ."

    So true.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Researching the WT-CD on John 15:8 yielded these selected comments in chronological order:

    9/1/52 WT

    p. 534 Maturity Essential to Increase

    Additionally and inseparably linked with bearing witness is the result, namely, the increase in the number of those who respond and also become disciples. That is all part of the fruitage, the ingathering of believers into the organization, just as established believers were the fruitage of the apostle’s labors.

    11/1/54 WT

    pp. 659-660 The Fruitage of the Spirit

    So, then, since each variety of seed produces its own kind, and since we ourselves came to a knowledge of the truth through someone else’s preaching of the Kingdom message, then it follows that the fruitage that we must produce is that of bearing witness to yet others of that same message and thus help to multiply the Kingdom interests.

    12/1/56 WT

    p. 729 Productive Witnessing

    Note he said "much fruit." This forcefully draws to our attention that Jehovah requires us to be productive witnesses, accomplishing much through preaching, locating persons of good will, feeding them and bringing them to maturity so that they likewise will see their privilege of bearing Kingdom fruit.

    5/1/58 WT

    pp. 282-283 Living Up to the Name

    Each congregation and each individual who shares in Jehovah’s service would do well to stop and ask, ‘Can I point to a fruitage of praise-producing dedicated ministers as evidence of a ministry productive of praise to Jehovah?’ Paul could, and he said: "You are shown to be a letter of Christ written by us as ministers, inscribed not with ink but with spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on fleshly tablets, on hearts." (2 Cor. 3:3) If we have no such letter of recommendation, then instead of continuing to perform a ministry that is in this respect unproductive, we would do well to analyze ourselves and our service to see wherein improvement may be made.

    Christ Jesus showed what else makes one’s service well pleasing in the sight of God. "My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples." (John 15:8) Merely sowing seed is not the same as bearing fruit. That seed of truth must be watered and cultivated and grow into a productive plant in order to bear fruit. If as a result of our ministry the seed of truth does take root and is cared for until it too grows into a fruit-producing plant, then our ministry glorifies Jehovah because it produces more praisers.

    4/1/58 WT

    p. 204 Man—Free and Responsible

    Additionally, every Christian has the responsibility to bear fruit, even as Jesus showed. (John 15:2) Among such fruitage is "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control." That includes helping our Christian brothers to the extent we have opportunity and means. We may not be like the priest and the Levite who tried to brush off their responsibility to the traveler who had been beaten and robbed by walking on the other side of the street. Rather, we must be like the good Samaritan who went out of his way to help the one in distress.

    9/1/60 WT

    p. 537 Awake Worshipers in the Time of the End

    He brings forth in his life fruitage of Christian qualities, referred to at John 15:8, and which brings glory to the Father. He is consistent in offering "to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name." (Heb. 13:15) This results in more persons hearing the good news and becoming dedicated Christians, heartwarming letters of recommendation testifying to the fruitfulness of the ministry in which we participate as "God’s fellow workers."

    9/1/64 WT p. 532 Let the Spirit’s Fruitage Make Over Your Personality

    Jesus in his illustration of the vine and the branches particularly emphasized this overriding purpose for bearing more of the spirit’s fruitage, saying: "My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples."—John 15:8.

    So keep on letting the spirit’s fruitage make over your personality. Keep on bearing much fruitage. Keep on proving that you are a true footstep follower of Christ Jesus and an imitator of his lovely personality.

    1/1/76 WT p. 31 Questions from Readers

    Bearing fruit would involve their manifesting the qualities that he, Jesus, had displayed. By abiding in union with him they could cultivate the fruitage of the spirit.

    12/15/78 WT p. 22 The Kind of Fruit Bearing That Glorifies God

    Judgment and justice, mercy, faithfulness, righteousness, the keeping and not a twisting of God’s Law were part of the fruit that Jehovah looked for from the typical "vineyard" of Israel. To be consistent, should he look for fruit different from all that to be on the "branches" of his "true vine"? Not at all! The fruit that He desires as an adornment of those "branches" is Christlike qualities of personality. But there is more to the fruit than an idle personality.

    The unchanging God does not want either such kind of fruit on the "branches" of his "true vine," Jesus Christ. So the spiritual Israelites of the Kingdom class must keep themselves morally clean. They must not commit spiritual adultery by making friends with this world.

    Their being no part of this world by keeping away from its politics and conflicts is the expression of the fruit of cleanness and stainlessness from this world.

    8/15/83 WT p. 23 United Fruit Bearers

    While the "other sheep" are not branches of the Abrahamic-covenant "olive tree" or of "the true vine," Christ Jesus, they must prove themselves to be Christ’s disciples. Like all the anointed Christian "branches," they must "keep bearing much fruit." This they do by producing Christlike qualities of the new personality, including "the fruitage of the spirit."

    8/1/01 WT p. 16 Make Your Advancement Manifest

    (John 15:8) Both by the fruitage of the spirit and by the Kingdom fruitage of their ministry, the disciples brought glory to Jehovah

    Today, Jehovah’s blessing is upon his people as they engage in a global spiritual harvest. For a number of years now, about 300,000 new ones every year
  • artful
    artful

    Hi Blondie: Thanks for posting these references to John 15. It appears that the earlier quotes interpret 'bearing fruit' as actually being productive by making disciples and state that this is not the same as just sowing seed. (5/1/58 WT, 4/1/58 WT). Then, the 60, 64, 76, 78, 83, 01 WTs associate 'bearing fruit' to displaying the fruitage of the spirit, and Christlike qualities (fine deeds toward others, political neutrality, etc.). None of these dispel the idea taught in the 50's that bearing fruit meant making disciples, but rather they seem to expand the meaning to include exhibiting Christlike qualities.
    I'm not sure where the last quote came from, but it seems to revert back to the 50's teaching by suggesting that the fruitage of the Kingdom ministry is evidenced by the growth in disciples - namely the 300,000 new ones who are added each year: "(John 15:8) Both by the fruitage of the spirit and by the Kingdom fruitage of their ministry, the disciples brought glory to Jehovah Today, Jehovah's blessing is upon his people as they engage in a global spiritual harvest. For a number of years now, about 300,000 new ones every year"

    In all of these quotes, there doesn't seem to be any mention that 'bearing fruit' represents 'sowing seeds' - in fact they state exactly the opposite. However, the quote from this weeks WT says: "the fruitage in this case is neither new disciples nor fine Christian qualities."

    I would therefore suggest that the WT study of this week represents a change in doctrine for the WTS regarding Jesus illustration of the branches and the vine!

    Of course, I wouldn't expect that any of the 'faithful' would notice this change as they ingest this 'food at the proper time'!
    Thanks Blondie
    Artful

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    AWESOME, blondie; i could not find it at first, panicked.

    I sat throught this stinker today and counted the words require and requirement for while till I got sick of it all. Always the emphasis on requirements, read RULES and MUSTS.

    I especially noticed the fact that NO ONE is exempt from the rule of witnessing; not old or infirm, NO ONE. One wonderful older sister in our hall commented how bad she felt that she could not do more, and I wanted to just scream. Just for her to make it to the hall is inspiration enough, but no she must call on the phone, or witness to the people in her retirement home. Worst of all is that she still feels guilt; what happened to motivating people to do what is in their heart after they learn how deeply they are loved by Christ, oops, i mean Jehovah?

    To top off the meeting, the speaker said that a woman was burned at the stake for not believing the trinity in 1950, and that Michael Servetus was burned in 1953.

    I almost laughed out loud; he obviously meant 1553, but then maybe he wrote it down wrong. He is the sickeningly happy and enthusiastic one in the hall, but shamelessly corrupt.

    I never mentioned to him that he made a faux pas.

    Let him give that talk again, and spread the fact of burnings at the stake as recently as the 50's!

  • RandomTask
    RandomTask

    You know they had to change the fruitage thing because hardly anyone has studies anymore and almost nobody but peoples kids ever get baptized. Don't you think that those who honestly believe this cult were starting to get discouraged by the simple reality that they had max out all of the weak minded people in the civilized world and nobody new was buying their pap anymore? Now its just, "go out in service, you don't have to accomplish anything, just DO IT". You would think that REASONABLE people within the religion would really see this as a sign that they aren't even sticking to their former convictions anymore, it was always taught that fruitage meant making diciples, I eman how could you interpret the scriptures any other way? But no, most will probably just feel relieved that "jehovah is taking a weight of their shoulders and encouraging them"

    Yeah, the end must be coming soon indeed...

  • blondie
    blondie

    Well, artful, pistoff, and Random Task, you all get an "A" and go to the head of the class. Isn't it amazing how the WTS own words convict them of being less than candid. New light to fit new circumstances and all from God himself.

    First, they have to actually read the WT. Most JWs hear it for the first time when the reader at the KH reads it out loud, assuming they are listening. The WT study used to be conducted with the question asked and answered, then the paragraph summed up. So many hadn't read or studied the WT yet they were reading the paragraph rather than answering the question. So the WTS switched it around rather than expect the r&f to read the mags.

    I wouldn't expect that any of the 'faithful' would notice this change as they ingest this 'food at the proper time'!

    pistoff, this is hilarious.

    To top off the meeting, the speaker said that a woman was burned at the stake for not believing the trinity in 1950, and that Michael Servetus was burned in 1953.

    I would have gone up and said, "Pardon me, Brother Speaker, but when I was in school, Michael Servetus was burned in 1553 not 1953 for not believing in the trinity. You meant 1553 didn't you?"

    Random Task, you summed it up quite well.

    Now its just, "go out in service, you don't have to accomplish anything, just DO IT".

    Wolfgirl, thanks for your support too.

    Blondie

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Blondie, et al...

    I thought those two parapgraphs 10 and 11, which attempted an explanation as to how a JW who knocked on doors for years without having made one convert, was still ``bearting fruit,'' were two of the worst worded messes I've encountered in a while; I defy anyone to make sense at the tortured prose attempting to equate ``seed" with ``fruit" (in the case of what, isn't the ``seed" the edible portion, or ``fruit' of that particular plant?).

    Of course, the WT can get away with such literary travesties because the flock is pre-conditioned to be uncritical; When a JW scratches his head over such unintelligible drivel, they invariably conclude that they're the problem: they just don't get it because ``it's too deep" and they lack the spiritual insight of the anointed!

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