US Military personnel are active as we speak in training the Indonesian Kopassus in the techniques that seem to repulse you so much.
I saw the article about what happened in Indonesia, but whats the American link?
Iraq's Tortured Children
by ThiChi 73 Replies latest social current
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RandomTask
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LB
LB you want tortured Iraqi Children, why don't you go look at this site, and see what American Depleted Uranium does to children.
Charlie I was there before and I'm sorry for baiting you on this. I know you care about kids. It's a serious thing with you and it is with me also. You've done a lot for kids already.
This is a bad thing all the way around Charlie. But do you think, since we are in this already, that kids in Iraq in the long run will benefit? It has been horrible there. Now trust me, I actually am not the Bush Robot Idiot or whatever Bush supporters are supposed to be. I just don't know of another way to rid the world of this guy than you go in there and take it over. Do we have the legal right? I don't have a clue. I don't know how to do taxes for crying out loud.
For anyone that wants to see truely horrible pics click on Charlies link. It's an eye opener.
I have a feeling, since that crap has been laying around for a decade that Iraq doesn't give a damn about cleaning it up. I have a feeling that we will do the job for them.
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hillary_step
Random,
The US Military cunningly sidestepped a Congress ban in continuing to supply training to the feared Kopassus and are still there training these thugs on how to drill holes in peoples heads.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/overseas/stories/priest0523.htm
The reason I am bringing this to the notice of this Board is that many seem, in the emotion of the moment to have lost their judgement and balance. The US is not against terrorism, torture and misinformation. It is against these things taking place in Iraq.
HS
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LB
The US is not against terrorism, torture and misinformation. It is against these things taking place in Iraq.
So the only hope mankind has is Jehovah then?
Damnit, back to meetings
HS I trust no government myself. Don't know what the hell to do about it either.
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hillary_step
LB,
I have a very healthy suspicion of what emits from Iraq in the way of politics and propaganda. I have an equal measure of suspicion for what passes as 'truth' in US government press releases.
It seems to me that some are willing to deal with US military outrages on different terms than they do that of other nations and that is most certainly the type of thinking that does permeate the thinking of the adherents of the WTS. This cognitive dissonace can apply to people in the political sphere also.
Call me naive if you wish, but my father was a Politician exiled to the UK for his politics after WWII and I know politics and politicians very well at first hand. Politics is a dirty business whether it wears a thick mustache or a tailor made Calvin Klein one piece, stars and striped jumpsuit!
Best regards - HS
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expatbrit
Hillary:
So what you're saying is that because children are suffering in one country, nothing should be done about children suffering in another country? Because not all problems can be solved, none should be attempted? This is, I'm afraid, a distraction and a cop-out.
The US is not against terrorism, torture and misinformation.
I simply can't agree with that. It places the US government and political system in the same league as the regimes of Iraq, of North Korea, and of any other brutal regime. Even a cursory look at the circumstances of the average citizen of the US compared with a citizen of Iraq shows that, while the US government can certainly improve, there is simply no comparison as to the use of terrorism, torture and misinformation, either on native citizens or those of other nationalities.
Expatbrit
p.s. your article was from 1998. What's happening now?
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hillary_step
Expat,
So what you're saying is that because children are suffering in one country, nothing should be done about children suffering in another country?
I cannot believe that you truly think that is what I was saying!
My point is that many would demand that the US use military force to bring an end to such outrages, while sweeping under the carpet the fact that the very military used to stop child torture in one country is actually training child-torturers in another. Does that not strike you as quite odd? Have you researched the US military involvement in such things in Columbia, Peru. Africa etc?
p.s. your article was from 1998. What's happening now?
According to Amnesty's 2002 report they are still there, but have changed the name of the operation so that it bypassed the decision that Congress made.
As an aside, even if the troops quit in 1998, are you suggesting that because the US military trained the Kompassus in 1998 and not 2003 that it has no moral implication now?
Best regards - HS
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RandomTask
So an article says that one special forces unit may be training these guys who kidnap and torture political dissidents. This action is condemned by the US government and the unit denies that they are training these particular people. I think this pales in comparison to the Iraqui regime, which has a policy of torturing their own people and letting babies starve. You want to equate this one military unit with the whole Iraqui unit and say that the US is just as bad? It seems to me you actually have an anti american agenda and wish to make the US look worse than it actually is as usual.
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expatbrit
Hillary:
I was asking if that was what you were saying, because I didn't want to think that you would subscribe to that illogical argument. It seems you don't.
Yes I've read about the US military's less than stellar record in other parts of the world. Nevertheless, I think that to highlight a bad thing in another part of the world is merely a propaganda method, a distraction from the good thing that the US military is going to accomplish in Iraq. If you wish to talk about Colombia, or Peru, or Africa, fine. You will probably find that I agree with you when you do. But the current discussions/debates are about Iraq, not those other places.
As an aside, even if the troops quit in 1998, are you suggesting that because the US military trained the Kompassus in 1998 and not 2003 that it has no moral implication now?
I would argue that it carries a moral obligation now for the US military. They trained the Kopassus, they have an obligation to get the hell back in there and sort them out. I hope they do. As a parrallel, it has been said that America set up Saddam. In that case, America has an obligation to get rid of him. They are now fulfilling that obligation.
Expatbrit
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ThiChi
"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible." -Iraqi torture witness' sworn statement to INDICT
(BBCNews: Iraq's tortured children)
(PBS.org: Highly secret terrorist training camp at Salman Pak)
(NY Times: Defectors Cite Iraqi Training For Terrorism - 11.12.01) (UK Guardian: The Iraqi connection - 11.11.01) (The New York Sun: September 11 and Iraq)