Poll: Do you trust Israel ? ? ? ?

by Iron Eagle 84 Replies latest social current

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Thanks SS: Will look into this.....

    Seawolf:

    Instead of using the "poison well tactic," why not rebut the information. Is it true he never got a trial? Is it true the government counted one sentence as one page of information? Is it true that the info he passed on was info that Israel should have according to agreement with the US?

    What damage did he cause to the US? The only information he supplied was related to the dictators around Israel....

    If the above are true facts, then your reasons for your claims are suspect and overblown!

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    SS: I can’t seem to make the connection that this helped Israel in any way....? USSR, yes.

    On June 19, 1953, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg became the first civilians to be executed for espionage in U.S. history. The couple had been found guilty of conspiring to transmit atomic secrets to the Soviet Union. The Rosenberg case began with the arrest of Klaus Fuchs, a German-born and U.S.-employed scientist who confessed to passing classified information about the U.S. atomic program to the Soviets. Following his 1950 conviction, U.S. authorities began an extensive investigation of Los Alamos, New Mexico, the top secret U.S. atomic development headquarters, where Fuchs worked during the war. Harry Gold, a Swiss-born chemist, was arrested as a Fuchs accomplice, followed by David Greenglass, who had worked as a machinist at the Los Alamos atomic testing site during the war. In July 1950, Ethel Rosenberg, the sister of Greenglass, was arrested along with her husband, Julius, an electrical engineer who had worked for the U.S. Army Signal Corps during the war. Both were active members of the Communist Party, and the couple was accused of convincing Greenglass to provide Harry Gold with atomic secrets. During their trial, the Rosenbergs maintained their innocence, though Greenglass, who had pleaded guilty, agreed to testify against his sister and brother-in-law. At the trial's end in the spring of 1951, David Greenglass was sentenced to 15 years in prison, Harry Gold was sentenced to 30 years, and the Rosenbergs were sentenced to death. Despite court appeals and international pleas for executive clemency, the Rosenbergs were executed by electrocution at Sing Sing Prison in New York on June 19, 1953. The trial occurred at the height of the "red scare" of the early 1950s, and critics of the case argued that the political climate of the time made a fair trial impossible. Others questioned whether the Rosenbergs deserved execution, especially as the only seriously incriminating evidence came from a confessed spy who was given a reduced sentence to testify against them. In one of her last letters before being executed, Ethel Rosenberg wrote, "My husband and I must be vindicated by history; we are the first victims of American Fascism."

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Nevermind the obvious fact that miniature "cabals" are operating in every sphere of western society. Never mind that these "cabals" control banking, finance, mass media, entertainment, and over 400 high level executive, judicial and cabinet positions in the US government. Never mind the pro-Israel politics and support for Israel's control over Arab oil in the future. never mind the usury relationship between Israel and the UK/US. All of this is obvious to anyone who makes time for research and is unbiased.

    Now comes the real shocker! There are no such thing as "natural semitic jews" anymore! That's right. Forget what you know about the so-called "diaspora". The humans calling themselves "jews" who live in the US and emigrated from Russia, from Germany, from war-torn europe, from Hungary, from Poland are NOT SEMITIC!

    They were not born from semitic descendants of the original diasporas. They are correctly termed "ashkenazi" however their roots are "KHAZARS". They are descendants of the Khazars who migrated westward into eastern europe from the Khazarian Empire. Most folks do not know there was an empire from around 200 to 900 AD in what we now consider european russia, ukraine, bulgaria, georgia, azerbaijian, armenia.

    The existence of these people is well documented in a book called the "Thirteenth Tribe" by William Koestler. The author was mysteriously killed with his wife after publishing this book. Another whistle-blower regarding the Khazars was Dr. Benjamin Freedman. I will list some very important links that confirm that today's modern jews are NOT SEMITIC at all, but rather descendants of a slavonic, nomadic, eurasian tribe that ruled an empire betwen the Byzantines, Persians, Mongols and Turks. This empire converted to Judaism in 740 AD under King Bulan. They made the talmud the new law and religion for the entire peoples under Khazarian control.

    Imagine, a nomadic empire converts to the talmudic religion, then after being overrun by the Rus (pre-russians), Magyars (modern slavs), Bulgars (bulgarians) they spread like refugees with the talmud in tow into what is now Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Germany. So the jews in europe during the world wars were NOT sephardic semites from the original diasporas who barely left a trace, but slavic caucasian nomads who were converted by law.

    Here are the links:

    http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler
    http://www.khazars.com
    http://www.khazaria.com
    http://www.compuserb.com/benfreed.htm
    http://www.lostisrael.com

    Also, if you perform searches under Khazar, you will find many good sources from universities that have researched the subject. So, it proves today's so-called jews know full-well they are not semitic and continue masking this from the public and claiming special privileges and crying 'anti-smitism" at the slighest questioning.

    Check this out because this is a big big thing.

  • seawolf
    seawolf
    Instead of using the "poison well tactic," why not rebut the information.

    Rebut the information? ALL of that point by point? I don't have that much time! Besides, A LOT of what you wrote was addressed in that last link I posted. Went into great detail on the courtroom proceedings and what happened.

    Is it true he never got a trial?

    Did you read the article? He didn't have a public trial. They had a plea agreement. But him and his wife shot their mouths off and PO'd the judge + more information on the damage he had done = he got life. It's all in the article.

    Is it true the government counted one sentence as one page of information?

    I have no idea. Pollard's page info is the only place I've ever seen that. I suspect both have elements of truth in them (the amount and how it was counted). One has to assume that if there is one top-secret sentence on a piece of paper, they're going to count the entire piece of paper and not just one word. I don't think they're going to say "He passed 117,254 classified words to Israel."

    Is it true that the info he passed on was info that Israel should have according to agreement with the US?

    Again, first time I've heard that. IF some of it Israel should have had, there's more than ample evidence that he gave them loads of stuff they shouldn't of had. Again, that last article I posted from the Jewish Star Times said:

    Virtually the entire U.S. intelligence and defense establishment, with CIA director George Tenet acting as point man, want Pollard to remain in jail forever. Few are as adamant about that as senior intelligence officers who happen to be Jewish. Numerous ranking members of Congress, including Sen. Joseph Lieberman, and a large number of American Jewry's top communal leaders do not object to Pollard remaining behind bars. What's more, some top Jewish professional leaders privately express revulsion at efforts to win Pollard's freedom.

    Seems to me a lot of Jewish people here in the US realize he did a lot of stuff he shouldn't have?

    "Mr. Pollard is a convicted spy who put our national security at risk and endangered the lives of our intelligence officers. There not terms strong enough to express my belief that Mr. Pollard should serve every minute of his sentence...." -Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL), chairman of the Senate's Select Committee on Intelligence, Washington Post, December 23, 2000

    What damage did he cause to the US? The only information he supplied was related to the dictators around Israel....

    It's all posted in my previous post!!

    From the Toronto Sun:

    Pollard caused enormous damage to U.S. national security. He gave Israel top-secret U.S. military intelligence and diplomatic codes; names of nearly 100 U.S. agents in the Mideast, who were then "turned" by Israel; NSA code-breaking techniques and targets; intercepts of foreign communications; and U.S. war-fighting plans for the Mideast.

    According to CIA sources, Pollard provided Israeli intelligence with names of important American agents inside the former Soviet Union and Russia who had supplied information on East Bloc weapons and war plans. How the agents' names were linked to the secrets they supplied - a major breach of basic intelligence security - remains a mystery.

    Some of the enormously sensitive secrets stolen by Pollard may have been either sold, or bartered, by Israel to the Soviet Union.

    A number of key CIA agents in the East Bloc were allegedly executed as a result of Pollard's spying. The KGB likely gained access to top-secret U.S. codes - either directly from Israel, or through spies in Israel's government. In short, Pollard's treachery caused one of the worst security disasters in modern U.S. history.

    From the Jewish Star Times:

    But all of this was dwarfed, according to a principal author of the Weinberger Declaration, by photocopying for Israel the massive 10-volume RASIN Manual. An acronym for Radio and Signal Intelligence [RASIN], the precious manual is known as ''the Bible,'' according to the intelligence officer. The RASIN Manual details America's global listening profile, frequency-by-frequency, source-by-source, geographic slice by geographic slice. RASIN was in effect, a complete roadmap to American signal intelligence. Informed sources say Pollard's RASIN Manual disclosure was the crux of a secret exchange in Judge Robinson's courtroom just moments before the outraged judge finally pronounced a life sentence. Some estimate the loss of the RASIN manual cost America billions of dollars and many years in completely restructuring America's worldwide eavesdropping operation. By any measure, though Pollard has sought to downplay the consequences to the U.S. of his actions, his crime was lasting and devastating to the U.S. intelligence community.

    Would that be considered damage?

    If the above are true facts, then your reasons for your claims are suspect and overblown!

    ?

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Who is a Jew?

    by Rebecca Weiner*


    Judaism is considered to be both a religion and a nation/culture. More than 13 million people are now identified as Jews, with roughly six million living in the United States and five million in Israel.** Jews come in all shapes, sizes and nationalities. For example, there are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews from India. Practices and beliefs among Jews range from those who call themselves Jews but have nothing more to do with the religion or culture to rigidly Orthodox who strictly observe ancient Jewish precepts.

    Today, Judaism is comprised of four major movements, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. Reform is by far the largest today, but it has relatively few adherents in Israel where most Jews are either Orthodox (a minority) or do not affiliate with a particular movement. Most Israelis are often described as "secular," but most still observe Jewish holidays (many of which are national holidays in Israel) and are very knowledgeable about their history and culture (which is taught in public school). The Conservative movement is also very strong in the United States, but has yet to make significant inroads in Israel. Reconstructionism is the smallest, and newest movement and has virtually no presence in Israel. The Orthodox movement has grown in recent years in the United States and remains the strongest movement in Israel. The Orthodox, more so than the other movements, are also divided among different sects, such as Satmar and Chabad.

    The Jewish movements have different interpretations of the Torah, which lead to different rituals, spiritual practices and beliefs. The diversity of beliefs and practices has led to different definitions of "Who is a Jew." This question is not just philosophical, it has political and legal ramifications. In Israel, questions of Jewishness have implications for immigration, conversion, marriage, divorce and the allocation of government money.

    Origins of the Words "Jew" and "Judaism"

    The original name for the people we now call Jews was Hebrews. The word "Hebrew" (in Hebrew, "Ivri") is first used in the Torah to describe Abraham (Gen. 14:13). The word is apparently derived from the name Eber, one of Abraham's ancestors. Another tradition teaches that the word comes from the word "eyver," which means "the other side," referring to the fact that Abraham came from the other side of the Euphrates, or referring to the fact Abraham was separated from the other nations morally and spiritually.

    Another name used for the people is Children of Israel or Israelites, which refers to the fact that the people are descendants of Jacob, who was also called Israel.

    The word "Jew" (in Hebrew, "Yehudi") is derived from the name Judah, which was the name of one of Jacob's twelve sons. Judah was the ancestor of one of the tribes of Israel, which was named after him. Likewise, the word Judaism literally means "Judah-ism," that is, the religion of the Yehudim.

    Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

    In the 6th century B.C.E., the kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and the ten tribes were exiled from the land (II Kings 17), leaving only the tribes in the kingdom of Judah remaining to carry on Abraham's heritage. These people of the kingdom of Judah were generally known to themselves and to other nations as Yehudim (Jews), and that name continues to be used today.

    In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it, and is therefore used throughout this site.

    Who is a Jew according to Halacha (Jewish Law)?

    According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.

    Besides for differing opinions on patrilineal descent, the various streams also have different conversion practices. Conversion done under the auspices of an Orthodox rabbi, entails Jewish study, brit milah (for men), mikvah (for both men and women) and a stated commitment to follow the laws of the Torah. Conservative conversions use the same requirements as the Orthodox do; however, conversions by the Reform movement and other streams do not have the same requirements. Since the conversion practices are not uniform, many Orthodox Jews do not recognize Reform or Conservative conversions as valid and, hence, do not consider the converts Jews. Once a person has converted to Judaism, he is not referred to by any special term; he is as much a Jew as anyone born Jewish.

    About Matrilineal Descent

    Many people have asked why traditional Judaism uses matrilineal descent to determine Jewish status, when in all other things (tribal affiliation, priestly status, royalty, etc.) patrilineal descent is used.

    The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew.

    In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [ie, the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

    Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (i.e., a Jew).

    On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.

    Several people have asked how King David could be a Jew given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew. This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.

    Implications in Israeli Society

    Immigration:

    In 1950, the Law of Return was passed in Israel stating that every Jew has the right to immigrate to Israel, and granting automatic citizenship and benefits to any Jew who makes aliyah. Jewish immigrants receive better benefits than non-Jewish immigrants, including guaranteed housing, ulpan (Hebrew language study), full tuition for graduate degrees, and other benefits including discounts on major purchases, such as cars and appliances. The absorption process is more arduous for non-Jews and may take many years, during which they might not have health insurance and other government services.

    Three famous cases tested the Law of Return and a Jew’s right to immediate citizenship. The first example involved Brother Daniel (born Oswald Rufeisen), a Jew who converted to Christianity during the Holocaust and had become a Carmelite Monk. During his youth, Rufeisen was active in a Zionist youth movement and fled to Vilna, Lithuania at the start of World War II. There he worked as a slave laborer and escaped to Mir where he worked for the police as a translator. Rufeisen took advantage of his position and smuggled arms to his Jewish friends and helped drive the police out from Mir before it was liquidated, saving nearly 300 Jews. Rufeisen hid in the forest and later a convent, where he decided to convert to Christianity. In 1962, Rufeisen, now Brother Daniel, applied to immigrate to Israel and, after being denied, he appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled that despite the fact he was born to a Jewish mother, he had since converted and should not be recognized as a Jew by the State of Israel.

    Following the Brother Daniel case, a new regulation was adopted stating that individuals registered as Jews for the "nationality" and ‘religion" section of their identity cards must be Jews according to halacha and they must not practice another religion. The Shalit case challenged this new ruling. Benjamin Shalit married a non-Jewish Scottish woman. Since he was an Israeli, she and their children automatically received Israeli citizenship. The two considered themselves atheists, but part of a Jewish nation and wanted their children’s identity cards to state Jewish for the nationality designation and to remain blank for religion. The Ministry of Interior wanted to keep both designations blank, so the case was appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled in the Shalits’ favor.

    The decision sparked controversy and, in 1970, an amendment to the Law of Return passed stating that only persons born to a Jewish mother or who had converted to Judaism were allowed to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. This amendment did not specify what type of conversion is needed, thereby allowing different interpretations. Since the amendment was passed, religious parties in the Knesset have tried to change it to apply only to Orthodox conversions, a move that angered the Reform and Conservative movements in the United States, which felt that it was an attempt to delegitimize their movements.

    The Shoshanna Miller Case in 1980 tested the new amendment. She applied for citizenship under the Law of Return as a Reform convert. Initially her petition was refused and she appealed to the Supreme Court, which ruled that she should be granted citizenship, in what became known as the Miller precedent.

    Conversion

    Non-orthodox conversions done outside Israel are allowed; however, in Israel, only Orthodox conversions are accepted by the government and the Rabbinate. While the issue of conversion had sparked controversy in Israel for many years, the need for a comprehensive conversion policy was heightened after the arrival of 800,000 Russian immigrants in the late 1980's. They immigrated under the Law of Return, however, about 200,000 -300,000 were not Jewish according to halacha. To find a solution acceptable to Orthodox and non-Orthodox streams, the Neeman Committee was formed. In February 1998, Finance Minister Yaakov Neeman recommended that conversions should be done according to halacha through a special Conversion Court, and that a special institute would be created to prepare applicants for conversion, in which they could take courses offered by all streams of Judaism. The Neeman Committee’s proposal was endorsed by the Cabinet and the Knesset, however it was not accepted by the Chief Rabbinate. Lacking the support of the Rabbinate, the Neeman Committee’s proposals were never implemented.

    In December 1998, Jerusalem District Court Judge Vardi Zeiler ruled that Conservative and Reform converts are allowed to be registered at the Interior Ministry as Jews, regardless of where the conversion took place. Following this case, appeals were expected and legislation has been proposed to allow only Orthodox conversions. The conversion issue has yet to be resolved.

    The issue of conversion also became controversial after the arrival of thousands of Jews from Ethiopia. Ethiopian Jews did not practice any rituals or laws pertaining to the Oral Torah and, instead, practice a purer form of Biblical Judaism, which is different than mainstream Ashkenazic and Sephardic Judaism. Because of these differences and for other ritual purposes, the Rabbinate proposed a symbolic conversion of all Ethiopian Jews to be done before they married. The Ethiopians refused stating that it delegitimized them as Jews. Eventually the issue was circumvented as a rabbi sympathetic to their cause was able to register their marriages. Ethiopian rabbis still have difficulty gaining legitimacy for their marriages and divorces performed in Israel.

    Marriage and Divorce

    Marriage ceremonies and divorce proceedings are not allowed to be performed or issued by Conservative or Reform rabbis in Israel. In fact, only Orthodox rabbis are allowed to marry Jews and many secular Israelis travel to Cyprus and other foreign countries to have a civil ceremony, which they can not receive in Israel. Israel does recognize marriages performed abroad by the Conservative and Reform movements; however, divorces issued abroad by rabbis from these movements are not recognized by the Rabbinate in Israel.

    One of the reasons why issues of conversion, marriage and divorce are so important to religious Jews is because of the possibility of mamzerim (illegitimates). In a Jewish divorce, a get must be signed by the husband. If he does not sign, then the divorce is not official and the couple is still legally married according to Jewish law. If the get is not issued, the woman is not free to remarry and have children, and if she does remarry and have children, then those children are considered to be bastards according to Jewish law. (There is no biblical injunction against multiple wives, however, it has been ruled illegal according to the Rabbis.) The bastard child cannot be issued a Jewish identity card and will not be permitted to marry another Jew in Israel. The illegitimate child is only permitted to marry other illegitimate children. Hence, many Orthodox Rabbis claim the reason they want to retain control over conversions, marriage and divorce is to avoid the problem of mamzerim.

    Allocation of Funding

    In Israel, another political implication for the "Who is a Jew" question is the allocation of government funds. The government of Israel sets aside part of their annual budget for religious purposes, much of these funds are then distributed by the Ministry of Religious Affairs. In 1994, the High Court of Justice ordered the allocation of funds to non-Orthodox institutions in Israel. The Ministry of Religious Affairs agreed to abide by the ruling of the court, however, officials decided that they would not earmark funds for non-Orthodox supplementary religious education or for non-Orthodox Torah culture funds.

    In 1995, the Ministry of Religious Affairs gave less than a half of a percent of the available funds to Hebrew Union College (HUC), the Reform Rabbinical Institute in Israel. Angered by the poor funding, petitions were sent to High Court to request increased funding for HUC and other Reform institutions.

    Funding is also determined by local religious councils. Until recently, non-Orthodox rabbis were unable to sit in religious councils, which control funds to local institutions.

    Alternative sources of funding have been found by the Conservative and Reform movements for their schools and programs. Funding for non-Orthodox schools, such as the Tali schools (run by the Masorti movement in Israel) has received funds from foundations, non-governmental organizations and the Jewish Agency.

    Some of the inequalities in the Israeli political system against non-Orthodox movements in Judaism may be alleviated by the potential break-up of the Religious Ministry, proposed by Prime Minister Ehud Barak.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    ThiChi:

    It is not a valid argument that jewish religious authority and the history of proselytizing are enough to consider a convert a "jew". The ethnic history of the ashkenzai is NOT about religious denomination, but rather race. If a chinese person in China converts to Islam, is he now an honorary "arab"? Of course not. Khazars get away with claiming religious and ethnic discrimination, but do NOT meet the racial requirement for anti-semitism! That is the point.

    I do not dispute the origin, history or usage of the word jew. I am proving that today's jews are ethnically slavic and jewish by faith only, therefore not semitic. Also, if you want to establish a biblical basis for who should have rights to palestine, go back to Genesis and read about "Adonai-Zedek" the King of Salem, an arab who who ruled over jerusalem long before any so called israelite ever set foot in modern israel.

    I do not approve of moving palestinians out of their homes to make room for Khazarian descendants.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Soory, this is a fact, just not in your mind.

    How about:

    In his article "Who Are the Jews?" (Natural History, November 1993), Jared Diamond is quick to downplay the European admixture among Ashkenazi Jews and discredit the theory that the Ashkenazim are descended largely from non-Semitic Central Asian Khazars who converted to Judaism in the 8th centurey (which has neither been proven nor disproven genetically), all in an effort to portray Jews as somehow "purely Israelite". He focuses on mtDNA and Y chromosome research that has shown all modern ethnically Jewish populations (save for the non-ethnically Jewish Ethiopian Jews) to be very closely related and to have ties with the ancient Hebrews of the Middle East. This is certainly true (and expected), but it can't be used—as it has been by both Jews and neo-Nazis—to prove that Jews aren't European. European gentiles also cluster genetically with Near Easterners, precisely because both groups are Caucasoid (and many, such as Southern Europeans, Eastern Europeans and certain populations of Britain, possess specific genetic patterns found among Near Eastern peoples, reflecting historical migrations of Phoenicians, Moors, Turks, etc.). This only indicates the presence of Mediterranean ancestry, as the Mediterranean type originated in the Near East. Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent brought agriculture to Europe and are said to reflect up to 20% of European genetic heritage.

    While previous studies of Y chromosome polymorphisms showed a small European contribution to the Jewish gene pool, Nebel et al. discovered that Eu 19 chromosomes common to Eastern European populations (54%-60%) were found at a rate of 12.7% among Eastern European Jews, conlcuding that "Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews" (Am J Hum Genet, 2001). This isn't yet definitive or quantitative genetic evidence of the European influence among Jews, but coupled with historical, anthropological and phenotypic data, it certainly suggests a relatively high degree of admixture. Hopefully, though, such studies will lead to more inquiry on the matter that will help wade through the political propaganda involved.

    Another argument, again made by Jews and neo-Nazis alike, is that Jews' genetic closeness and distinctness from surrounding non-Jews proves that they constitute a unique and separate race. But this can easily be accounted for by genetic drift in a small, isolated population. And Jews are by no means the only group to which this phenomenon has occurred. Icelanders, though a mix of Celtic and Scandinavian peoples, are genetically isolated from the rest of Europe, but no one would consider them non-white or even any different from Swedes, Danes and Irishmen. Sardinians, Cretans and Basques are other examples of populations composed of various Caucasoid subracial elements who are phenotypically identical to their surrounding populations, though genetically isolated from them.

    It’s unfortunate that the tales spun about Jews by Nazis for political reasons are now being mirrored by similar politically-motivated tales coming from the Jews themselves. However, it’s difficult to convince any rational individual, especially in light of the folly of Nazism, that a group of people that resembles the majority, dominates in fields such as law, medicine, business and media, and is on the whole quite wealthy qualifies as an oppressed racial minority.

    The point? Nothing is proven. Nothing is fact........Studies are still needed.....

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Is it scientifically possible to become "semitic" by converting judaism? If so, does it require rabbinical approval or israeli approval? How does the DNA make this change? How are the external features affected by conversion?

    I noticed the link ThiChi provided for "Ashkenazim" conveniently ignores Khazarian history.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    More up to date:

    Last Update: March 9, 2003

    This page is the most comprehensive summary of Jewish genetic data. In recent years, advances in genetic technology and the broadening in scope of genetic studies to encompass more ethnic groups have allowed scientists to come to more accurate conclusions. Nevertheless, not all questions have been answered fully, and followup studies are necessary. At the present time, it is known that Eastern European Jews have a significant Eastern Mediterranean element which manifests itself in a close relationship with Kurdish, Armenian, Palestinian Arab, Lebanese, Syrian, and Anatolian Turkish peoples. At the same time, there are traces of European (including Western Slavic) and Khazar ancestry among European Jews. Ethiopian Jews mostly descend from Ethiopian Africans who converted to Judaism, but may also be related to a lesser extent to Yemenite Jews. Yemenite Jews descend from Arabs and Israelites. North African Jewish and Kurdish Jewish paternal lineages come from Israelites. Additional research is necessary, and it will certainly take several more years to sort it all out. All existing studies fail to compare modern Jewish populations' DNA to ancient Judean DNA and medieval Khazarian DNA, and many of them focus on paternal ancestries rather than maternal ancestries, so the extrapolations and assumptions made by geneticists may not necessarily be correct. Studies that do take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    The point is your claim is false. It is a mixed bag, at the very least, your conclusions only offer a false choice.

    The information provided is how Israel determines who is a Jew. The DNA extrapolations, which includes your 13 th tribe, shows the wishful thinking on your part.

    ""Now comes the real shocker! There are no such thing as "natural semitic jews" anymore! ""

    Rubbish! Give us a break!

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