Poll: Do you trust Israel ? ? ? ?

by Iron Eagle 84 Replies latest social current

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    U Reformist:

    It is one matter to speculate, it is another matter to declare something a "fact." Your theories can be debated. The DNA evidence "questions" your claims, which your claims are based mostly on speech, geography and an agenda to discredit the Jews.

    Notwithstanding, as new research study the genetic lines of Jewish women (they were more prone to relocate to other areas through marriage), I am sure more light will be forthcoming.

    So far, the DNA studies are more convincing than your theories.

    To discount research of this kind is very telling.....

    "...Dr. Harry Ostrer, head of the Human Genetics Program at the New York University School of Medicine... The study of evolutionary and genetic history through DNA analysis is transforming what we know about ourselves... In 1997, Karl Skorecki in Haifa, Michael Hammer in Tucson and several London researchers surprised everyone by finding evidence of the Jewish priestly line of males, the Kohanim. Half of Ashkenazic men and slightly more than half of Sefardic men who claimed to be Kohanim were found to have a distinctive set of genetic markers on their Y chromosome, making it highly possible that they are descendants of a single male or group of related males who lived between 1180 and 650 B.C.E., about the time of Moses and Aaron. The Kohen marker is but a fragment of the information gleaned from DNA analysis... A study published last year in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science looked at the Y chromosomes of 1,371 males from seven Jewish population groups and came up with a profile of Jewish genes. They found 13 major Y-chromosome patterns or signatures, called haplotypes. 'The haplotypes of all but Ethiopian Jews shared a similar pattern,' says Ostrer, a member of the study team led by Hammer and Batsheva Bonne-Tamir of Tel-Aviv University. 'This means we are not descended from one person or 12 tribes but 13 founder males.' The same 13 haplotypes, by the way, are common among Middle Eastern Arabs including Palestinians and Syrians. They also show up in Greeks and other ancient Mediterranean lines, who may date from the time before Jews emerged as a people... 'We are definitely Jews,' says Ostrer. 'We share Jewish haplotype patterns.' Ostrer estimates the European admixture over 80 generations is an extremely low 0.5 percent. The study also found that male Jews of Russian and Polish ancestry do not have a chromosome profile similar to Russian and Polish non-Jews. Haplotypes have also helped the identity seekers to retrace the path of the wandering Ashkenazic Jew. We who hail from East Europe most likely migrated there from Alsace and Rhineland, says Ostrer, as confirmed by Yiddish, a form of low German. Based on his study of Roman Jews, Ostrer concludes that Ashkenazim lived in Italy for a thousand years before they migrated into Alsace and Rhineland. 'There's no genetic difference between Ashkenazic and Roman Jews, who say they have lived in Italy for 2,000 years,' he observes. Ostrer and Hammer are now conducting the largest study of Jewish genetics so far, trying to determine how we are all related, and tracing the migrations that formed communities during the 2,000 years of diaspora... 'Being Jewish is a spiritual, metaphysical state and DNA is a physical characteristic, like nose size,' said Skorecki in an interview in The Jerusalem Report. 'But we wouldn't dare go around saying we're going to determine who is Jewish by the length of their nose. Similarly we're not going to determine who is Jewish by the sequence of their DNA.'... And so for me, the positives of Y-chromosome analysis far outweigh the possible negatives. We are an ancient group of clans descended from 13 polygamous men, and our genetic history is part of the redefinition of humanity...

  • Realist
    Realist

    thichi,

    Firstly, yes the question is whether this war is about oil or bringing peace and freedom. considering who runs the US it seems rather likely that its about the oil imho.

    considering that nothing is done about the many many bad dictatorships that are allies with the US supports my point. that the US pressed to go to war so strongly without using all available peaceful means first is further indication.

    Secondly, i never claimed that politicians are better in other countries.

    france and russia are against the war because of their oil contracts....i never stated anything to the contrary but made that point previously. germany is not economically involved at all...the reason the german gov. is against this war is that it was their only chance to win the last election.

    this conflict has shown more clearly than anything ever before how blatantly politicians lie all around the world and that they give a shit about human lifes.

    there are politicians that are actually interested in a good cause but you can count them with the fingers of one hand. none of the rulers currently belong to this noble class....be it hussein, bush, putin, chirac, schroeder etc.pp

    PS: you have not provided any information that would address my argumentation.

    PPS: you should read a definition of circular logic.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Realist:

    ""Firstly, yes the question is whether this war is about oil or bringing peace and freedom. considering who runs the US it seems rather likely that its about the oil imho. ""

    Thanks for admitting this! At least you have tempered down to "it seems likely.." very good!

    ""considering that nothing is done about the many many bad dictatorships that are allies with the US supports my point. that the US pressed to go to war so strongly without using all available peaceful means first is further indication. ""

    There you go again, around and around. Off Topic However, I will give you a bone: You are right, what do you propose to do about it? Just what I thought......The truth is appeasement has not worked. How long do we use peaceful means? it has been 12 years now! What a red herring. There is a new Leader in town......how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time!

    ""Secondly, i never claimed that politicians are better in other countries. ""

    I know, this is what is missing in your claims, balance to reach the right conclusion. If I just let you run on and on, you would be going past the moon right now. LoL

    ""france and russia are against the war because of their oil contracts....i never stated anything to the contrary but made that point previously. germany is not economically involved at all...the reason the german gov. is against this war is that it was their only chance to win the last election. ""

    Then why not say so? Your statements only lead one to a false choice about the US. There is hope for you yet, if you can grasp this.... .

    ""germany is not economically involved at all..""not true, they are the secound supplier of parts for the army, the Ruskies are first...Germany also has some oil contracts too....see what I mean?

    ""this conflict has shown more clearly than anything ever before how blatantly politicians lie all around the world and that they give a shit about human lifes. """

    Around and around we go.......So What? The issue is Oil for War. We know you are paranoid.

    ""there are politicians that are actually interested in a good cause but you can count them with the fingers of one hand. none of the rulers currently belong to this noble class....be it hussein, bush, putin, chirac, schroeder etc.pp ""

    Very fatal reasoning...I feel sorry for you and the world you live in...............

    ""PS: you have not provided any information that would address my argumentation. ""

    Go back just ten posts here for an example. Do a search....The reality is you don’t acknowledge the information, you seem comfortable in your paranoid world you live in. Fine!

    ""PPS: you should read a definition of circular logic.""

    I did, and it read: "Realist" LOL

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    ThiChi: The scientific debate about DNA hundreds of years after the fact, using data and specimens from an already mixed environment will no doubt produce results that conflict with historical evidence. It is a smokescreen. I do not have an agenda to discredit jews. If you accept and convert to the jewish faith, you have become a believer, a jew. That is 100% fact. However, the majority of jews alive today are NOT semitic. Mediterranean features are visible everywhere and does not make italians or greeks semites. The american and british jews have always had a financial, political, and ethnic agenda beginning with gaining control of power where they live. This is fact. The Balfour Declaration, Bernard Baruch, Paul Wolfowitz. The list is long. I cannot stop it, like I cannot stop "phony muslims" like Louis Farrakhan from deceiving the disenfranchised. There are many agendas. Jews happen to have a very well-financed agenda, worldwide. And that still does not make them semitic. Scientific evidence can be gathered and collected with a pre-determined purpose to prove hypothesis in advance. If I want prove jews ARE semitic, I will start collecting samples from the oldest, documented families I can find in the middle-east. If I want expose Khazars, I can collect evidence everywhere else. Simple.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    UR:

    Your speculation is just that. Your post regarding Shock and Awe thread reveals your agenda. If you want to discount DNA and other "historical" factors then fine. I will not sit by when you present claims that "beg the question" in light of other information.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Check out this article from the BBC today!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2852299.stm

    I was not able to past it in.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    BBC NEWS US and Israel's 'common cause'
    By Barbara Plett
    BBC Middle East correspondent
    These are days of war talk, and the same sort of talk is coming out of Israel and the United States.

    From Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon: "Israel will not surrender to blackmail. He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt it and kill him first. As we have proven there is no and there will never be any shelter for evil."

    From US President George W Bush: "We will not wait to see what terrorists or terrorist states could do with weapons of mass destruction. We are determined to confront threats wherever they arise and as a last resort we must be willing to use military force."

    It is the language of war against terrorism, used for both Iraq and for the Palestinians.

    But are the two conflicts the same?

    "The Americans and the Iraqis don't have a dispute about land, they don't have a political dispute about sharing the same area," says Israeli defence correspondent Alex Fishman.

    "In Israel, we've got an historical, cultural dispute, it's a completely different story, you can't compare it."

    Common language

    So if the conflicts are different, why is the language the same?

    Suicide bombings have certainly contributed.

    They have reinforced Ariel Sharon's view that Palestinian violence is terrorism rather than a national struggle against occupation.

    And, says analyst Akiva Eldar, they have also suited his political agenda.

    "The suicide bombings is something that made it even easier for Sharon to sell this equation that we and you the Americans are in the same boat," he says.

    "Because 11 September was a suicide bombing. Both in the US and in Israel it helped people to paint the conflict in black and white."

    Regime change

    But it is more than the way the US and Israel describe their conflicts; they also talk about the same solutions.

    Regime change, for instance, is viewed by many as good not only for the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, but also for the Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat.

    "In the case of Arafat it's been clear for the vast majority of Israelis for probably close to three years now that we will get nowhere with him," says former Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Arens, "that there has to be regime change there if we're going to arrive at useful negotiations."

    Then there is military occupation - of the West Bank right now, but maybe soon of Baghdad.

    And pre-emptive strikes - long an Israeli policy - have become part of the US lexicon.

    Israeli counter terrorism expert Boaz Ganor witnessed the transition in American thinking while he was there on a lecture tour that coincided with 9/11.

    "Of course I had been asked difficult questions, like how dare Israel use targeted killings, they called it assassinations," he says.

    "After 9/11 this question was not asked even once.

    "Because the same day of 9/11 President Bush said we are going to hunt them, and what is hunting them if not targeted killings?"

    Tough image

    So does this mean Israel is directly influencing Washington's strategy for its war against terrorism?

    "I think we in Israel have to be more modest than that," says Moshe Arens.

    "I think the United States has shown itself to be quite creative in the fighting in Afghanistan, I don't think they needed to learn anything from us."

    But some think Ariel Sharon may have shown what it is possible to get away with.

    "I am sure that Bush looks at Sharon and says to himself: listen, this is a tough guy, look what he is doing there, he is succeeding, the Israelis like it, the international community is not really too upset about this," says Akiva Eldar.

    "So perhaps this is the message to the Americans, that it works."

    What about after the war? How would an American victory affect the Israeli Palestinian conflict?

    Some say it would facilitate a solution, others that it would complicate matters.

    Peace by force

    What seems clear now is that Israel and the US increasingly have the same approach to dealing with conflict: one based on force and deterrence, rather than diplomacy and international law.

    And here Akiva Eldar thinks there is a direct connection.

    He says key policy advisors around George Bush do see America's battle with Iraq and Israel's battle with the Palestinians as part of the same war.

    "They have actually suggested that Israel will help the United States to take over the Middle East," he says.

    "They were sitting in think tanks that believed that you don't even try to appease or satisfy the Arabs, you reach peace by force which means you impose it... you don't make concessions to people you don't trust, and that puts them and Sharon in the same party."

    That is a controversial view, one which few Israelis or Americans would accept.

    But it is one which may be strengthened by a US strike against Iraq, at least in the eyes of Arabs and Muslims.

    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/2852299.stm

    Published: 2003/03/15 04:02:53

    © BBC MMIII

  • Iron Eagle
    Iron Eagle

    Wow, what a debate.

  • Valis
    Valis

    Nope...I remember seeing something about the spying incident on the news, but no one ever heard much about it at all, but they were here in the US...in Little Rock, Arkansas...they had a whole company and trucks and the whole nine yards...when they were about to get busted they all bailed and left their business, sans the computers behind. I won't even get into what they do to the Palestinians 24/7.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    The Zionist Roots of the "War on Terror"

    By Henry Makow, Ph.D - November 18, 2002

    Until recently I accepted Israel's self-image as a beleaguered, peace-loving nation in a sea of blood thirsty Arabs. The idea that this tiny state had imperialist designs seemed ludicrous.

    But what if, unknown to most people, including Israelis, the world's power elite were using Israel to advance their plan for New World Order?

    What if Israel's role were to colonize the Middle East, and to become the seat of the World Religion?

    "Israel's Sacred Terrorism" (1980) by Livia Rokach, a 63-page on line monograph suggests that this bizarre scenario may not be so preposterous.

    Rokach's monograph is based on revelations from the personal diary of Moshe Sharett, who was Israeli's first Foreign Minister from 1948-1956, and Prime Minister from 1954-1956.

    According to this diary, which the Israelis tried to suppress, Israel's image of vulnerability was a ruse. Israel has always planned to become the dominant power in the region, and "invented dangers" in order to dupe its citizens and provoke wars.

    In his diary, Sharett quotes a conversation with Army Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan in May 1955:

    "We face no danger at all of an Arab advantage of force for the next 8-10 years...Reprisal actions which we couldn't carry out if we were tied to a security pact are our vital lymph...they make it possible for us to maintain a high level of tension in our population and in the army. Without these actions we would have ceased to be a combative people... "

    Sharett concludes: "The state.... must see the sword as the main if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may—no it MUST—invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." (41, emphasis mine)

    "COVERT AGGRESSION"

    This policy of "reprisals" or "provocation and revenge" was also called "covert aggression." The U.S. "war on terror" is a continuation of it. Essentially it involves disguising a policy of aggression as retaliation for sham provocations.

    For example, Israeli patrols would cross the border to attack Jordanians or Egyptians, and then claim the actions took place in Israel. Once attacked, the army pursued the "aggressors" into enemy territory and wreaked havoc. Ariel Sharon was the leader of a squad ("Unit 101") that specialized in these murderous forays. His 1953 raid on the Jordanian village of Kibiyah killed dozens of civilians. (30)

    In March 1954, an Israeli bus travelling between Eilat and Beersheba was attacked and 10 passengers were killed. The UN armistice Commissioner, a Col. Henderson said, "from the testimonies of the survivors, it is not proved that all the murderers were Arabs." He attributed the attack to "terrorists intent on increasing the tensions in the area." (28) Thereupon the Israelis left the Armistice Commission in protest.

    In June-July 1954 an Israeli terrorist squad blew up many British and American institutions in Cairo in an attempt to sour relations between the Arabs and the West. Dubbed the "Levon Affair," possibly this was a precursor to the attack on the World Trade Centre.

    From the point of view of "covert aggression", if terrorism didn't exist, Israel would have to create it. Possibly, Israel's security establishment inspired some recent attacks on Israelis. In some instances, the terrorists are described as "white." Remember the sniper who killed 10 Israeli reservists at a checkpoint? If he were Arab, wouldn't he have struck again?

    Most Arab terrorism is no doubt authentic. But I wouldn't be surprised if at critical junctures, Israel's "security establishment was behind it.

    Israeli commentators lament that Israel is not a democracy. They say its security establishment has hijacked the country. One pundit remarked, "Israel is not a state with an army, but an army with an affiliated state." They also lament that a culture of corruption, brutality and immorality pervades the army. See Ran Ha-Cohen, "Israeli Elections. So What"

    I believe the Illuminati controls Israel's security establishment.

    WHO IS THE ILLUMINATI?

    The world's wealthiest families have more in common with each other than they do with humanity. From their perspective, we are "useless eaters." In the guise of "globalism," they plan to increase and consolidate their wealth and power, and reduce everyone else's.

    The heart of the Illuminati's power is the banking and oil cartels, (Rothschild, Rockefeller) but it includes many interlocking cartels like media, pharmaceuticals, defence, illegal drugs and prostitution. It operates through the world's intelligence agencies, and groups like the Council on Foreign relations, which grooms all US leaders.

    Esoterically, the Illuminati is a secret society within another secret society, the Freemasons who are dedicated to sacrificing mankind to Lucifer.

    All of this sounds fantastic because it is kept out of the media and education systems, which are mental caretakers in an invisible asylum.

    Recently, Americans have been recruited to do the grunt work of subjugating Islam. This is not the first time the Illuminati has used the U.S. in this fashion. America was embroiled in World War One to free a million British soldiers to conquer Palestine for the Zionists. In the Second World War, the U.S. saved Communist Russia's bacon. Both Communism and Zionism are creations and instruments of the central bankers.

    THE USES OF ANTI SEMITISM

    The Illuminati has always used anti Semitism to trick Jews into advancing its nefarious goals.

    In the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" the speaker confesses the illuminati has "wiped out every kind of rule except our own." Nevertheless it allows attacks on its plan for world domination in order to create anti Semitism. "Anti Semitism is indispensable to us for the management of our lesser brethren." (9-2)

    From childhood Jews are taught that they are disliked for no rational reason and Israel is insurance against another holocaust. This attitude dehumanizes their opponents and obviates the need for genuine self-criticism. Often the question is not, is something true or false? Right or wrong? But, "Is it good for the Jews?"

    Traumatizing people and convincing them that irrational fiends threaten their survival is an effective form of mind control. Such people will throw morality and reason to the wind and, if necessary, become savage, mindless killers themselves. They are easily exploited by forces that may not be Jewish at all, that may be anti Semitic, and plot their destruction.

    Now the Illuminati is using the same tactic on Americans. The Mossad's fingerprints are all over 9-11. Apparently, Israel's Zim Container Lines moved their 200-man office out of the WTC the week before and no Israelis died in the attack. Seven of the supposed Arab "hijackers" seem to be alive.

    If Osama bin Laden didn't exist, the United States and Britain would have created him. Osama may be genuine but there is evidence that he has received money from the British MI-6 as recently as 1996. According to the French daily Le Figaro, Ben Laden met with the CIA station chief in Dubai in July 2001. He serves the purpose of those inciting a bogus "clash of civilizations."

    In the domestic sphere, the persecution of Jews has become a cultural paradigm. Lately, women and gays are the Jews, taught they're oppressed by heterosexuality, and homosexuality is normal. . Millions of lives are being ruined. The Illuminati's hidden agenda is to destroy society's immune system (its ability to resist totalitarianism) by attacking its red blood cell, the nuclear family.

    In conclusion, "covert aggression" is the primary means by which the Illuminati enacts its long-term plan. Americans have been incited to become oppressors by a phoney Muslim threat. Unaware of what's done in their name. Americans are now like Jews asking, "Why do they hate us?"


    Henry Makow Ph.D. is the inventor of the board game Scruples and the author of "A Long Way to go for a Date." His articles on feminism and the New World Order are collected at his web site www.savethemales.ca ... He welcomes your comments at [email protected]

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