Q about Jesus' sacrifice

oncebitten

I have several JW family members. I have been shunned many years now. I was not baptized, but I was indoctrinated as a child. I'm apparently seen as an opposer because I defended my decision against baptism by using WT publications that were old light. Hence, the shunning, although they insist they do not "shun" and only the Amish do that.

I suppose due to an allowance for "family business' I was in contact with a jw relative not long ago. A mutual JW family member died. This Jw relative announce to me that this deceased person's sins were forgiven by his death. I was not sure if I heard correctly, and innocently asked, What? You mean by Jesus' death?

That brought laughter and this reply; "No of course not,.Jesus didnt die for our sins- he died for Adam's sins"

This person has been a JW for 28 years. So I will assume that is the current belief of a Jw. Any thoughts?

I have to say that I never once was taught by Jdubs that Jesus died for my sins. I honestly wasnt sure what Jesus' death was for concerning me. Ijust thought that if I did everything they said ( no holidays etc) I could maybe be forgiven? I just knew something was missing.

Having read through the bible after my JW influence years ended, it is clear as day that Jesus died for OUR sins- and that it is crucial to believe Him and obey his command to love one another. We love God because he first loved us!

So, I have to say that I can not understand how any religion can call themselves Christian and not know that much. it is repeated in the bible so many times! Jesus paid for our sins with His blood.

Here's my Q. I went on Jw org site the other day and I see that they are saying Jesus died for our sins on there. They dont say much else........ which isnt surprising. But why wouldnt my 28 yr Jw relative agree?

Is this doublespeak by the WT?

no-zombie

Most Witnesses are ignorant of the current views from the Governing Body, as things change often. As a result so see things as if they had taken a snapshot of their beliefs when they were baptized, and keep it as the basis of how they view the Bible throughout their lives. And there are others who have never bothered reading their Watchtower study articles thoroughly and only pick up the highlights, misunderstanding things along the way. So we should expect to encounter those like your family, who aren't in tune with current doctrine.

But to answer your question about Jesus and sin, more directly. Biblically you are 100% right, however because the Organization has chosen to push Jesus into the background (in favor of underlining the name of God), Jesus' roll is not generally elaborated at the meetings or discussion articles. The example of King David get more air time than Jesus actually. Thus even from this angle, we can see why Witnesses may be ill informed about the Messiah's place in our lives.

oncebitten

I agree with what you've said. I just have a question though. If the org has gotten new light saying Jesus died for our sins and not just Adam's, wouldn't that have been a big deal? Did I misunderstand you?

Here we have someone going door to door teaching this rubbish to others. It is a self atonement! I heard from one person who told me it is a mangling of Romans 6 where Paul is speaking about new birth and how believers die with Christ.

This Jw is in very good standing and is not a stupid person and puts a lot of time and energy into WT publications and service.

Sea Breeze

I suppose due to an allowance for "family business' I was in contact with a jw relative not long ago. A mutual JW family member died. This Jw relative announce to me that this deceased person's sins were forgiven by his death. I was not sure if I heard correctly, and innocently asked, What? You mean by Jesus' death?
That brought laughter and this reply; "No of course not,.Jesus didnt die for our sins- he died for Adam's sins"
This person has been a JW for 28 years. So I will assume that is the current belief of a Jw. Any thoughts?

I have thought a lot about this topic. Yes, it is still current theology. But, it is not pushed because it is just so reprehensible to even speak it. If they harped on it too much, the members would realize that they were working for their salvation which is clearly condemned in scripture.

Yet, undercurrents of self-atonement and works-based salvation are readily accepted even though they will profess the opposite when questioned. It is a weird existence the JW's try to live. No wonder so many mental problems.

Vidiot

Sea Breeze - “…Yes, it is still current theology…”

I concur; it’s a major part of why the WTS can never budge on evolution.

And the Bible does state that “death covers all sins”, BTW. Not sure of the full context, though.

Sea Breeze

@Vidiot

WT theology (indoctrination) cannot be untangled unless a persons does two things:

1. You must totally get rid of symbolic interpretation unless it is warranted in the same verse(s) you believe might be metaphoric.

2. You must abandon all non biblical definitions of words, concepts and phrases.

In the above instance you referenced, death means separation of the soul, body, spirit interfaces of identity, not non-existence.

Genesis 35:18 Amplified Bible (AMP)And as her soul was departing, (for she died), she named him Ben-oni (son of my sorrow); but his father called him Benjamin (son of the right hand).

So while the wages of sin is death, there is still judgment and punishment after death... unless of course a person accepts Jesus' offer to be punished in their place. (See Hebrews 9: 27 & 2 Corinthians 5:21 )

no-zombie

Its sort of more complicated than my previous post because there is the concept in Witness publications that the Christian scriptures was written for the anointed ones. And seeing that the Great Crowd of worshipers who have an earthly hope came much latter in times ... we get our rewards only because of our association with the remnant of the 144,000.

This is why this discussion of who, when and why sins are forgiven is a little muddy (well a lot muddy the deeper you dig) in this religion.

Touchofgrey

Is there any independent evidence that has been verified by independent experts that a miracle worker jesus ever existed and died and was resurrected.

The four gospels accounts were written decades after the so called events and by unknown authors, so not eyewitness accounts.

Saul/Paul not a eyewitnes.

At the supposed death of jesus the sky went dark for three hours, earthquake,the temple curtain ripped in two ,the holy ones walked out of their tombs, even someone who wasn't interested in jesus would have noticed these things.

No mini facts please.

And that millions of people believe something doesn't make it true.

Sea Breeze

there is the concept in Witness publications that the Christian scriptures was written for the anointed ones.

Historical Christianity including the apostles believe the same thing. The switch happened when the WT convinced people that they could still be Christians without being anointed. The WT changed the definition of what anointed meant in the bible. A JW will think that it means going to heaven. But "anointed" is the same as "being declared righteous" and also the same as being "Justified".

No Justification = no salvation from judgment.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:... Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. - Romans 5: 1&9

TonusOH

oncebitten: Jesus didnt die for our sins- he died for Adam's sins

I don't think I ever heard it expressed that way. To me, both statements are saying the same thing. If Adam's sin is what condemned humanity, then Jesus's sacrifice is what saved it. By balancing the scales to negate the cost of Adam's sin, he has given humanity a path for the expiation of their own.

But it does sound like the kind of thing some JWs would say. They seem to have a need to "correct" almost any statement made by a non-JW about Christianity.

Q about Jesus' sacrifice

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