Q about Jesus' sacrifice (page 4)

Vanderhoven7

Yes, and even unbelieving Bart Ehrman admits there are no significant variations in the many ancient copies of New Testament documents. The New Testament is reliable.

Touchofgrey

In one of his YouTube videos he said that there are about half a million errors some of which are insignificant and others where whole verses are changed..

But let's accept your statement, bart has used these documents to disprove the jesus story from beginning to end, virgin birth right through to the fake trial and the crucifixion account and burial and empty tomb story.

Bart also confirms that the four gospels were written decades after the so called events by unknown authors and that Paul's letters were written before the four gospels accounts.

You have yet to provide any independently verified evidence that the jesus story is true.

Regarding there being many copies of the books of the bible ,bart has said that this is because scribes were paid for this work it was their job.

oncebitten

Touchofgrey,

Hi there. I dunno but this thread was abouta conversation with my JW sister and my JW father who died. The conversation was quite an eye opener for me as I had no idea Jws teach that our death is atoning.

Bart is clearly a big bang atheist now. Here is a quote from his blog:

BDEhrman March 7, 2017 at 9:39 amLog in to Reply

When I say this world is all there is, I mean that there is nothing other than what resulted from the Big Bang.

I would prefer it didnt go off into an atheist discussion, but the ball is in your court as I am all for fee speech.I hope this thread has some value to someone. I hope you understand.

oncebitten

Touchofgrey,

Hi again. I just want you to know that I did read what you wrote and I understand your concern about Paul's letters. However, you dont need to think that way simply because we have a very early church father, Clement of Rome (30-100 AD) who wrote extensively. He knew Paul, Luke and Peter. Paul even mentioned Clement in one of his letters, Phillipians (57 AD). Clement taught justification by faith as Paul did. Justification means righteounsess. They are the same word.

That is not to discount good works. Works come through a person who is saved. It is not forced. As Paul taught, we walk in the works that God prepared for us.That comes after we believe God's grace. We should always care for the sick, help the poor, etc, and when given the opportunity, share the gospel. These things are not forced but a changed heart desires to help. But we are not all teachers. We have varying gifts and faith works through love..

If you want to read Clement you can do so here ccel.org

ok enough hijacking my own thread! I hope that helped to resolve your question about Paul's writings.

Touchofgrey

I asked for independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus even existed .

Paul claims that jesus spoke to him on the road to Damascus so if there is no evidence that he was a real person who performed miracles etc ,and that fact that the four anonymous gospels were written after the writings of Paul. Who or what did Paul base his writing on?

Its a discussion forum I was just joining the discussion.

carla

It has been my experience that jw' s have no concept of salvation in the traditional Christen viewpoint.

It has also been my experience that a jw will not discuss or entertain the mere concept of 'salvation'.. And in no way willl they accept any 'salvation' through or because of Jesus Christ.. In fact, my jw will prefer to run away than to have this conversation, go hide in bathroom, need to answer phone, need to answer neighbor he neglected for months on end , etc......I think he would prefer a tornado than do have an actual discussion.

And, for goodness sakes, never, ever, find youtubes or museum, college, academic, etc... that might negate their beliefs.

oncebitten

The idea of justification seems to be a concept developed by Paul, as there are no original copies of his letters, earliest about the 3rd century. How can you be sure that the true meaning has not been altered or lost in translation?

Touchofgrey, That's the ^^^ question I responded to, obvioulsy.

I'm not an expert on your questions so you would do better with someone else besides me. This site is usually very interesting although i admit to not having read this link. Have a look. https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/article/did-jesus-exist-searching-for-evidence-beyond-the-bible/

I believe because I have prayed and been answered time and time again. It's not a question for me if He exists- He is very real.

I do understand that you have many questions. I was there too, but with a different set of questions. My faith wasnt shipwrecked because of a bunch of twisted liars- and especially because the WT fits the false teachers warnings in the scriptures all too well. So we were warned in multiple places. That ought to build faith not destroy it, ya know?

Instead, I had to begin at square one with learning what the bible actually said. I didn't trust a single person to help me. ALL that I had was prayer.I would suggest prayer to you as well, and keep at it. He already knows why you struggle, so go to Him. Let Him heal you like he did me. He will stick closer than a brother. What do you have to lose?

oncebitten

It has been my experience that jw' s have no concept of salvation in the traditional Christen viewpoint.

Hi Carla,

It hit me in my core when she said that. She was making fun of the idea that Jesus = salvation or that it's a free gift. She truly thinks that by dying we pay for our sins. WHAT? We all die so what's that mean then? We are all sinless at death? Where they get this stuff is beyond me. No wonder Jesus is just a blip at the end of a prayer.

I was aware of how they get stuck on James and works. I dont know why they cant understand that James is speaking about much later time after Isaac was born some 25 years AFTER God had declared Abraham righteous way in back in Gen 15 for believing the promise. It was a test to prove he was genuine. But even that confusion doesnt explain the blatant self- atonement rhetoric.

It comes from a single line in Romans 6 OUT OF CONTEXT. People think that Jws understand their bibles because they TALK SO MUCH but, sadly nothing is further from the truth. WT uses cherry picked verses and make entire doctrines. It's wickedly deceptive. What the Gb can do to person's mind is frightening. They utterly reject what the bible plainly says because we arent the suited men in the castle with the gnosis.

I'm going to write the chapter out and explain it to her, and snail mail it in the hopes that she can see it is not saying anything like what she has been taught. I can only hope she will read it. It's really sad.

It has also been my experience that a jw will not discuss or entertain the mere concept of 'salvation'.. And in no way willl they accept any 'salvation' through or because of Jesus Christ.. In fact, my jw will prefer to run away than to have this conversation, go hide in bathroom, need to answer phone, need to answer neighbor he neglected for months on end , etc......I think he would prefer a tornado than do have an actual discussion. And, for goodness sakes, never, ever, find youtubes or museum, college, academic, etc... that might negate their beliefs.

That would be comical if it wasn't so sad. It seems you've hit the sweet spot there. Running away or changing the subject are the two MO's. Bring up the trinity and you'll have 4k at your door haha.. bring up Michael and most leave. It breaks my heart to pieces, honestly. There is no rejoicing in them, no joy, no peace, no singing in their hearts, and the love? My kids don't know my own family.

Jesus died for your sins is the roach spray? I may need to remember that one day. It's such a tangled web they are caught in. Don't give up hope! Keep praying and chasing into the bath on occasion.

Touchofgrey

A young rich man asked jesus what must I do to get everlasting life, jesus said to keep the commandments and sell his riches and give to the poor, off he went ,

That now middle aged rich man meets Paul and asks him the same question but now is told that he must have faith in the blood of jesus to have everlasting life.

Is jesus right and Paul's wrong or is Paul right and jesus wrong or are they both wrong or right?

Religion's today each have their own interpretation of the bible and so believe slightly different things, so are all right or all wrong?

Sea Breeze

@touchofgrey

The advice from both was appropriate since one was issued in the Age of Law and the other in the Age of Grace. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Paul was Apostle to the Gentiles.

Even so, as Jesus got closer to the work he would do on the cross, he told Nicodemas 3 times that he must be born again.

Good works in the NT flow from a supernaturally changed life (a new spirit), not will-power.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father..... But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:

Q about Jesus' sacrifice

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