All About Jesus Christ

by UnDisfellowshipped 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

JLOB

UD,
I appreciate your tenacity and I love and respect the spirit behind your beliefs. Instead of discusing a barrage of scriptures that I do not disagree with lets keep with the original piont I was making- Jesus did not want to be worshiped, Jesus did not want to recieve the glory for the power of Christ that he was fulfilling.
If it is the Divine plan for us to worship Jesus than how could Satan use that as a temptation? How can one be tempted by what they already have or already know to be true? In Luke Satan refered to the power and glory of all the kingdoms of the world and how he would give that to Jesus if Jesus worhiped Satan.
I ask again how can Satan tempt Jesus with something (Power & Glory) that you and many others claim is he has?
The answer is clear. Jesus never wanted to be worshiped. He never claimed any powers of his own, he always gave GOD the glory for his powers.
To worship Jesus and ignor the true spirit of Christ is like worshipping Moses instead of following the 10 comandments.
Ponder this for a while. Pray about it. Seek CHRIST.
Why did Jesus never claim to be GOD?
With love to you UD and all that reads this.
JLOB
UnDisfellowshipped

JLOB, thank you for your comments.
You said:
I appreciate your tenacity and I love and respect the spirit behind your beliefs. Instead of discusing a barrage of scriptures that I do not disagree with lets keep with the original piont I was making- Jesus did not want to be worshiped, Jesus did not want to recieve the glory for the power of Christ that he was fulfilling.
I have already proved that the entire New Testament says that the Man Jesus WAS THE CHRIST. Absolutely no way of getting out of it -- either the Bible is wrong, or you are wrong.
The Bible says that God came to Earth and became a Human:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him. Without Him was not anything made that has been made. ... The Word became Flesh, and lived among us. We saw His glory, such glory as of the Only-Begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. ... He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world didn't recognize Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own didn't receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in His Name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ... For the Law was given through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (Verses from John Chapter 1)
Since God became Human, if God was not Jesus, then who was God as a Human? It is absolutely clear from John Chapter 1 that God became Human, and His Name is Jesus Christ.
The Old Testament also said that God was going to become Human:
Isaiah 9:6: For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the Government shall be on His shoulder: and His Name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
JLOB said:
If it is the Divine plan for us to worship Jesus than how could Satan use that as a temptation? How can one be tempted by what they already have or already know to be true? In Luke Satan refered to the power and glory of all the kingdoms of the world and how he would give that to Jesus if Jesus worhiped Satan.
I ask again how can Satan tempt Jesus with something (Power & Glory) that you and many others claim is he has?
Satan offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus Christ if Jesus would worship Satan.
Why was this a temptation? Jesus could have accepted Satan's offer, and then Jesus would have been made King over all the world without having to die on the Cross. However, without Jesus dying on the Cross, all people would still die in their sins, and go to Hell after they died. Not to mention that I don't even know what would have happened after God Himself worships Satan and goes against His own Word the Bible. It basically would have made Satan ruler of God.
JLOB said:
The answer is clear. Jesus never wanted to be worshiped. He never claimed any powers of his own, he always gave GOD the glory for his powers.
Holy angels refused to be worshiped; humans refused to be worshiped; Jesus NEVER refused to be worshiped:
Matthew 14:33: Those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "You are truly the Son of God!"
John 9:35-38: Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and it is He who speaks with you." He said, "Lord, I believe!" and he worshiped Him.
John 5:20-26: For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does. He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He desires. For the Father judges no one, but He has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent Him. "Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself.
Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He [The Father] brings in the Firstborn [The Son] into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Philippians 2:5-11: Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the Form of God, didn't consider it robbery to be equal with God, but emptied Himself, taking the Form of a Servant, being made in the likeness of men. And being found in Human Form, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the Cross. Therefore God also highly exalted Him, and gave to Him the Name which is above every name; that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in Heaven, those on Earth, and those under the Earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
JLOB said:
To worship Jesus and ignor the true spirit of Christ is like worshipping Moses instead of following the 10 comandments.
The Bible says: "that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent Him"
Also read Revelation Chapter 5 to see that JESUS receives EQUAL honor, praise, glory, and WORSHIP with the Father.
JLOB said:
Ponder this for a while. Pray about it. Seek CHRIST.
I talk to The Christ, JESUS, everyday of my life, and I thank Him for saving me, even though I deserved to go to Hell.
JLOB said:
Why did Jesus never claim to be GOD?
Jesus did claim to be God:
Revelation 2:23: ...all the congregations will know that I [Jesus] am the One who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
Revelation 22:12: "Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with Me, to repay to each man according to his work.
Revelation 22:13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:16: I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you for the congregations. I am the Root and the Offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."
John 8:58-59: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM." Therefore they [the Pharisees] took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden, and went out of the Temple, having gone through the midst of them, and so passed by.
And many, many more Verses.
With love to you UD and all that reads this.
I send my love to you also.
JLOB

UD,
First let me make myself clear. I am a Christian. I believe that Christ did manifest fully in Jesus. Christ is not a name it is a title. Christ meaning is the anointed. Jesus was a man. There is a difference between the Christ in Jesus and Jesus. Just like there is a difference between GOD's spirit in us and us. To say Jesus Christ is to say Jesus ( a man) Christ (who is anointed). No need to continue to discuss Jesus as the Christ. There is no disagreement with what you are saying about Jesus and Christ or Jesus Christ. I love Jesus for who he was and what he represents to all true Christians.
UD you said
Why was this a temptation? Jesus could have accepted Satan's offer, and then Jesus would have been made King over all the world without having to die on the Cross.
How can GOD be made king of a world he created by Satan a creature he also created? Why would Satan even think he could offer his "GOD" the kingdom of the world? It does not make any sense. Satan was trying to tempt a man, Jesus, not GOD. When tempted Jesus with Christ's authority rebuked Satan and said to him "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy GOD, and HIM only shalt thou serve" Jesus did not say to Satan you must worship and serve me for I am your GOD. The Christ in Jesus gave Jesus the power and authority to withstand Satans temptations.
Why would "GOD" have to die on a cross to save the mankind he created? Once again do not confuse GOD, the power of Christ and Jesus. To do so would to completely overlook the power of Christ and the sacrifice that Jesus made.
You have not clarified either by your beliefs or via scripture how a Creation can tempt his Creator.
Once you come to the realization that you can not explain how Jesus if he were GOD could be tempted with all the kingdoms of the world by a creature that he created, than I can begin to explain how I believe in the Christ in Jesus and at the same time I believe that Jesus is also the anti-christ and worshiped by many lost and confussed Christians.
It is Satans greatest success to have Christians worshipping Jesus as GOD and totally confussing the power and authority of Christ.
JLOB
Chap

Jesus could have accepted Satan's offer, and then Jesus would have been made King over all the world without having to die on the Cross. However, without Jesus dying on the Cross, all people would still die in their sins, and go to Hell after they died. Not to mention that I don't even know what would have happened after God Himself worships Satan and goes against His own Word

I agree with the above statement. I have wondered what would have happened if Jesus Christ had not carried out God the Father's will. I think that eventually, everything would have ceased to exist because everything is held together by the Word of God and the Word of God would have been broken.
JLOB, When a person says "Jesus" I assume he is talking about Jesus Christ. Jesus and Christ cannot be separated because they are one in the same. I do not quite understand what you are saying when you say Christians erroneously worship Jesus. Consider the following:
Matthew 16:13-17 King James Version
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? [14] And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. [15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
DJ

First of all, if Jesus is not The Christ, then we all need to throw away the entire New Testament, because it is all full of lies!

Hi Undis,
Amen to that! Thanks for all of your work. I'll keep in for reference too.
UnDisfellowshipped

JLOB,
You have stated many things that seem very contradictory.
You said you are a Christian. You said that Jesus is the Anti-Christ. You said that The Christ was fully manifested in Jesus. I believe you said that people who worship Jesus are hateful people who are following Satan to their own demise (except for a few who may be pretty good people). You said that God resurrected Jesus. You said that you love Jesus. You said that Jesus is not The Christ. Then you said that you do not disagree when I showed you from the Bible that Jesus is The Christ. But, then, once again, you say that Jesus is separate from The Christ.
I really am trying to understand what you are saying, but those statements seem very contradictory to me.
JLOB, Can you please answer a couple of questions?
Who was God when God became a Human? What was His Name when He became a Human? (John Chapter 1, John 20:28, John 8:58, and Isaiah 9:6)
Or, did God never become a Human? In which case that would mean that the Gospel of John is a false book, full of lies and deception.
Do you believe that the Bible was Inspired by God, and is the Truth?
I will definitely be replying to your latest comments soon.
playdrums

UD, I for one, really appreciate your posts and find them very helpful. I'm not opposed to seeing them posted elsewhere either but I like seeing the ensuing discussion and emotions as well. I'm datin' a JW and appreciate "collection" of the information.
UnDisfellowshipped

JLOB said:
How can GOD be made king of a world he created by Satan a creature he also created? Why would Satan even think he could offer his "GOD" the kingdom of the world? It does not make any sense. Satan was trying to tempt a man, Jesus, not GOD. When tempted Jesus with Christ's authority rebuked Satan and said to him "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy GOD, and HIM only shalt thou serve" Jesus did not say to Satan you must worship and serve me for I am your GOD. The Christ in Jesus gave Jesus the power and authority to withstand Satans temptations.

You asked a very good question -- how could Satan tempt God Almighty?
Satan knew that God The Son had come to Earth for the purpose of dying on the Cross in order to pay the penalty of all faithful humans' sins to The Father -- that was the ONLY WAY for humans to be saved from going to Hell (which they fully deserved).
I don't know if I have explained this very well -- Jesus was God The Son, He is a separate Person from The Father and also The Holy Spirit. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are Equal in all of the Nature, Essence, Qualities, and Attributes of God, The Supreme Being.
When God The Son became Human, He was 100% Human and 100% God. I can't explain how that was, any more than I can explain how God has always existed and always will exist, but the Bible definitely teaches this:
Colossians 2:9: For in Him [Christ Jesus] dwells all the Fullness of the Godhead [Nature of God] Bodily
Philippians 2:5-11: Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though He was God, He did not demand and cling to His rights as God. He made Himself nothing; He took the humble position of a Slave and appeared in Human Form. And in Human Form He obediently humbled Himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a Cross. Because of this, God raised Him up to the heights of Heaven and gave Him a Name that is above every other name, so that at the Name of Jesus every knee will bow, in Heaven and on Earth and under the Earth, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him. Without Him was not anything made that has been made. ... The Word became Human Flesh, and lived among us. We saw His glory, such glory as of the Only-Begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. ... He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world didn't recognize Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own didn't receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in His Name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ... For the Law was given through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (Verses from John Chapter 1)
Satan offered God The Son "an easy way out", I suppose you could say. A way for Jesus to be made King without dying on the Cross. You see, if God The Son did not care about humans, or about fulfilling the prophecies of the Bible, then He could have just accepted Satan's offer, and He would never have had to be tortured and die on the Cross, and bear everyone's sins on Himself.
I don't even know if it would have been possible for God The Son to have sinned. But it definitely was possible for God The Son to be tempted!
Matthew 4:7: Jesus said to him [Satan], "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "
It is obvious that God can be tempted, or else why would God have made the Commandment "You shall not tempt God"?
Also, the Bible says that God was tempted:
Exodus 17:1-7: At Jehovah's command, the people of Israel left the Sin Desert and moved from place to place. Eventually they came to Rephidim, but there was no water to be found there. So once more the people grumbled and complained to Moses. "Give us water to drink!" they demanded."Quiet!" Moses replied. "Why are you arguing with me? And why are you tempting Jehovah?" But tormented by thirst, they continued to complain, "Why did you ever take us out of Egypt? Why did you bring us here? We, our children, and our livestock will all die!" Then Moses pleaded with Jehovah, "What should I do with these people? They are about to stone me!" Jehovah said to Moses, "Take your shepherd's staff, the one you used when you struck the water of the Nile. Then call some of the leaders of Israel and walk on ahead of the people. I will meet you by the rock at Mount Sinai. Strike the rock, and water will come pouring out. Then the people will be able to drink." Moses did just as he was told; and as the leaders looked on, water gushed out. Moses named the place Massah--"the place of tempting"--and Meribah--"the place of arguing"--because the people of Israel argued with Moses and tempted Jehovah by saying, "Is Jehovah going to take care of us or not?"
Numbers 14:22: because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted Me now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice
Deuteronomy 6:16: You shall not tempt Jehovah your God as you tempted Him in Massah.
Psalm 78:18: They willfully tempted God in their hearts, demanding the foods they craved.
Psalm 78:41: They tempted Him again and again, and provoked the Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 78:56: Yet they tempted and provoked the Most High God, And did not keep His Testimonies,
Psalm 95:8-9: Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness, when your fathers tempted Me, and put Me to the test, though they had seen My work.
Psalm 106:14: But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, And tempted God in the desert.
Isaiah 7:12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I tempt Jehovah!"
Matthew 16:1: Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and tempting Him [Jesus] asked that He would show them a sign from Heaven.
Matthew 19:3: The Pharisees also came to Him [Jesus], tempting Him, ...
Matthew 22:18: But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you tempt Me, you hypocrites?
Matthew 22:35: Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him [Jesus] a question, tempting Him ...
Acts 5:9: Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."
Acts 15:10: Now therefore, why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
1st Corinthians 10:9: nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents
Hebrews 2:18: For in that He [Jesus] Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Hebrews 6:3-11: But Christ, the Faithful Son, was in charge of the entire household. And we are God's household, if we keep up our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ. That is why the Holy Spirit says, "Today you must listen to His voice. Don't harden your hearts against Him as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tempted God in the wilderness. There your ancestors tempted Me, even though they saw My miracles for forty years. So I was angry with them, and I said, `Their hearts always turn away from Me. They refuse to do what I tell them.' So in My anger I made a Vow: `They will never enter My place of rest.'"
Hebrews 4:15: For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but [Jesus] was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Here are a couple of Web Pages that explain how God can be tempted better than I could:
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/obj_Jesus_sin.htm
http://www.j-e-s-u-s.net/Jesus/evangelo/tempted.html
http://www.mckenziestudycenter.org/bible/articles/testing.html
Jesus was quoting a Scripture to Satan, that is why He said "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve", instead of "You shall worship Me, and Me alone shall you serve". Also, quite often in the Bible, Jesus spoke of Himself in the third person, such as "The Son of Man shall..." or "The Son of God will...", etc.
I will try to comment more on your other statements soon.
seedy3

First of all, if Jesus is not The Christ, then we all need to throw away the entire New Testament, because it is all full of lies!
Umm did you ever consider that it is a pack of lies, and Yehsuah (Jesus to you Christians) never did walk the earth, ever never?? How could such a GREAT miricale worker have gone unnoticed, by the current day historians of that day?? That's like saying nobody noticed Hitler, or wait hold on how about Edgar Cayce, Heck Cayce, did less then Jesus and yet he is known almost world wide and has historical evidence. Jesus if he did live was not "God" or the "Son of God"
Seedy
UnDisfellowshipped

Seedy3,
Have you ever read the following Historians' comments about Jesus?
Josephus' Antiquities 20.9.1:
But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
_______________________________
Josephus' Antiquities 18.3.3:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was one who performed surprising works, (and) a teacher of people who with pleasure received the unusual. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
_______________________________
Tacitus' Annals 15.44:
But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.
_______________________________

All About Jesus Christ

Share this