All About Jesus Christ

by UnDisfellowshipped 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

'Clearly the Christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction.' – Celsus (On The True Doctrine, c178AD)

First of all, the only way to know whether or not the Virgin Birth was a "myth", is to have known whether Mary had sex before Jesus was born.
I don't believe Celsus would have had that knowledge about Mary's sex life.
I will do more research into Celsus.
I would love for people to try to refute the information I posted. If it is the truth it will stand up under any amount of investigation.
Seedy, I will definitely read that Website and get back to you.
I have a question -- Do most scholars believe that Paul wrote his Epistles in the 50's and 60's A.D. or not?
Also, is there any writings of anyone in the first century (or even the 2nd century) who tried to refute the claims by Christians that Jesus performed miracles?
gumby

UD,
I personally can testify....mary was a virgin. Joseph was may dads dads dads dads dads dads dad...........and he was told by his friend whom told his friend and his mom told him and she's the one who passed it to us........so I know it's true.
I would love for people to try to refute the information I posted. If it is the truth it will stand up under any amount of investigation.
UD....I agree....the truth will stand scrutiny
I have a question -- Do most scholars believe that Paul wrote his Epistles in the 50's and 60's A.D. or not?
Many do yes. Many also believe that pauls letters were written BEFORE the gospels were.
Also, is there any writings of anyone in the first century (or even the 2nd century) who tried to refute the claims by Christians that Jesus performed miracles?
I just quoted one . There were other writers who thought the christians were coo coo.
Here is a link to more info......http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/lying.htm
Gumby
UnDisfellowshipped

I did a little research into Celsus.
I do agree completely with this statement that Celsus made:
"One ought first to follow reason as a guide before accepting any belief, since anyone who believes without testing a doctrine is certain to be deceived"
However, I am going to comment on some of his other statements below:
"It is equally silly of these christians to suppose that when their god applies the fire (like a common cook!) all the rest of mankind will be thoroughly scorched, and that they alone will escape unscorched-- not just those alive at the time, mind you, but (they say) those long since dead will rise up from the earth possessing the same bodies as they did before. I ask you: Is this not the hope of worms? For what sort of human soul is it that has any use for a rotted corpse of a body? ...it is nothing less than nauseating and impossible."(86).
Why does Celsus believe it is "silly" that God can destroy certain people with fire? Celsus doesn't appear to explain why he thinks it is "silly".
Then, from his other statements, it is obvious Celsus does not understand what Christians believe, or what the Scriptures teach about the resurrection.
The Bible says that God's people will be raised up in their original bodies, which will then be glorified by God, and will be made immortal, incorruptable bodies:
1st Corinthians 15:51-54: Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "death is swallowed up in victory.
So, Celsus obviously did not know what Christians believe about the resurrection, or he was intentionally lying. How many other things was he wrong about?
Why does Celsus say that resurrection is "impossible"? How does he know?
Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.
I have no idea where Celsus got that stuff from, however, it does show that even Celsus did not claim that Jesus never existed. In fact, it also proves that even Celsus did not try to refute that Jesus had special powers (although he did claim they were "Egyptian Magical Powers").
UnDisfellowshipped

Gumby said:
Many also believe that pauls letters were written BEFORE the gospels were
I have no problem with that idea.
My point about when Paul's letters were written is this -- if Jesus Christ is a made-up "myth", then it was made up while Pontius Pilate was governor, or AFTER Pontius Pilate was governor, because the Jesus "myth" says that Jesus was killed by the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate.
This means that the "myth" would have had to have been made up around, let's say, 30 A.D. (or even later).
So, by the 50's to 60's A.D., Christians believed that Jesus died for their sins, arose from the dead, ascended to Heaven, and that Jesus was God, Lord, Savior, and that everyone who believed in Him would have eternal life. Congregations were popping up all over the place. Christians were being persecuted and sometimes even tortured and murdered for not forsaking their beliefs in Jesus.
All of that was spread around within 20-30 years after the "myth" was made up??
How many myths from that time period still have followers today?
seedy3

I have a question -- Do most scholars believe that Paul wrote his Epistles in the 50's and 60's A.D. or not?

I do beleive so, UD, however there are some of the epistles that are questionable as to who really wrote them, I would have to research them again to findout which ones were in question. but many have been proven to be from the apostle paul
Seedy
gumby

How many myths from that time period still have followers today?

How much re-search have you done on eastern religions who still practice beliefs older than christ?
The muslims...started about 600c.e. by the prophet Mohammed are still in existance, Budism...older than Jesus is still around, and many others. The triune god invented by constantine and his sidekick eusebius the liar, is going strong to this day also. Justy because a belief last a long time does not prove it's authenticity.
UD,
One thing to keep in mind is that not all sceptics doubt there was a holy man named Jesus. Where the doubts come in is.......was Jesus all the things the bible perports him to be? Was he divine? Was he from above? Did he really perform miracles? Did he rise on the third day? Was he really god's son?
Many sceptics believe that the stories about him grew way out of proportion and were believed by many. Many believe what was truely written about him was later altered by the church to make him fit the person they wanted him to be.
Even if some type of undeniable proof could be given of his existance.....that would not explain the horrible attrocities that were commited by his loving pa in the OT along with the allegorical stories it contains that clearly copied the pagans.
I enjoy your honesty and your admitance to what you find is true.....you are a unique christian.
Gumby
UnDisfellowshipped

Gumby said:
How much re-search have you done on eastern religions who still practice beliefs older than christ?
The muslims...started about 600c.e. by the prophet Mohammed are still in existance, Budism...older than Jesus is still around, and many others. The triune god invented by constantine and his sidekick eusebius the liar, is going strong to this day also. Justy because a belief last a long time does not prove it's authenticity.
First of all, Constantine certainly didn't "invent" The Trinity, because, even non-Christian writings show that the first-century Christians worshiped Jesus as God, and also worshiped The Father as God, and, the writings of Paul clearly show that Christians believed that The Holy Spirit is God.
I understand your point, and it is a very good point. There are religions still practiced that are older than Christianity. And that alone does not mean they are true religions.
Last night, when I asked the question "How many myths from that time period still have followers today?", I should have worded the question differently, and explained and clarified better what I meant.
I should have asked:
How many people who claimed to be the Jewish 'Messiah' or 'Christ' still have followers today, 2,000 years later?
I believe Celsus was trying to say something like this in some of his writings:
"Why should I believe Jesus is any more special than any of the other people who claimed to be the Jewish Messiah or Christ?"
And the point I was trying to make was, that JESUS is the only person who claimed to be the Jewish Christ or Messiah that has followers 2,000 years later.
Gumby said:
One thing to keep in mind is that not all sceptics doubt there was a holy man named Jesus. Where the doubts come in is.......was Jesus all the things the bible perports him to be? Was he divine? Was he from above? Did he really perform miracles? Did he rise on the third day? Was he really god's son?
I agree. The reason I am posting information about whether or not Jesus even existed, is because Seedy asked me about it.
Many sceptics believe that the stories about him grew way out of proportion and were believed by many. Many believe what was truely written about him was later altered by the church to make him fit the person they wanted him to be.
I can understand why some think that. However, since Paul's writings were done in A.D. 50's and 60's, the Church would have had to have altered the writings about Jesus within 10-20 years after Jesus died, and during that time, Christians would have had to start believing the "myths", even though several of the actual writings about the regular person Jesus would probably still have been around, and eye-witnesses who saw Jesus would still have been around, and they should have been able to easily refute the claims that Jesus performed miracles.
Gumby said:
Even if some type of undeniable proof could be given of his existance.....that would not explain the horrible attrocities that were commited by his loving pa in the OT along with the allegorical stories it contains that clearly copied the pagans.
Well, I haven't even brought up the Ossuary that was found last year ["James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus"]. I'll try to post info on that soon too.
I believe in the absolute Sovereignty of God. I personally believe that God is Perfect and can do no wrong. His Nature will not allow Him to commit what He has defined as a sin. God has the right to punish whoever who deems as evil. Everything He did in the past was Perfect, and everything He does in the future will be Perfect. I cannot understand why He does everything He does, but I'm not going to stop believing in Him because I can't understand the reasons behind everything that the Infinite, Eternal, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent Creator does. The Old Testament also does not always give the full details about what happened, and the reasons for what happened.
Gumby said:
I enjoy your honesty and your admitance to what you find is true.....you are a unique christian.
Thank You, and I also enjoy your honesty, and I enjoy hearing from you, and everyone else.
UnDisfellowshipped

JLOB, I'm sorry for the delays, I am now going to reply to your comments:
JLOB said:
How can GOD be made king of a world he created by Satan a creature he also created? Why would Satan even think he could offer his "GOD" the kingdom of the world? It does not make any sense. Satan was trying to tempt a man, Jesus, not GOD. When tempted Jesus with Christ's authority rebuked Satan and said to him "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy GOD, and HIM only shalt thou serve" Jesus did not say to Satan you must worship and serve me for I am your GOD. The Christ in Jesus gave Jesus the power and authority to withstand Satans temptations.
After doing more studying and research, I now have a better understanding about Satan's temptation of Jesus Christ.
I believe that these two Websites give very good Scriptural answers for how Jesus, God Almighty, could be tempted:
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct3.htm
http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t003.html
Why would "GOD" have to die on a cross to save the mankind he created? Once again do not confuse GOD, the power of Christ and Jesus. To do so would to completely overlook the power of Christ and the sacrifice that Jesus made.
That is a very good question. The entire Bible teaches that God was going to come to Earth and save people from their sins.
The Bible teaches that God The Son took on Human Flesh, while He still kept His Nature of God, and He was 100% God and 100% Human.
When God The Son came to Earth, He came as a "Slave" of The Father. He submitted 100% to His Father's Will.
I'll try to post more soon.
seedy3

UD said:
How many myths from that day still have followers?
Zoroasterian beliefs are still in existence, and that is the religion that the Hebrews adopted the messiah idea from, as well as the cult of Mithras came from, which is one of the sorces for the God/Man/Savour beleifs. And these beleifs came from the Hindus that also spawned the Buddist. So you see there are still elements of the acient myths around.
Seedy
JLOB

UD,
I have not contridicted myself rather you have not lsitened to what I have said or you refuse to accept my argument.
I am a Christian which means that I follow the teachings of the Christ.
There is a difference bewtween The Christ and Jesus.
I am not a Jesustian.
The Christ is God, Jesus was a man. Christ and Jesus are 2 distinct seperate beings. The Christ did manifest completely in a man. The Christ did die on a Cross inside a man. The Christ raised that man from the dead. The power of the Christ is our salvation. Jesus knew this and that is why you can not find in the bible anywhere where Jesus claims to be GOD.
Christ is a title, the title we use to describe our GOD as he exsist in us. Christ is not a name. Jesus is a name. To say Jesus Christ is not incorrect. To say Jesus was the Christ is not incorect either. You probably belive that Jesus lives inside you. Truth is The Christ lives inside you just like he lived inside of Jesus.
I believe that Satan uses Jesus as a way to confuse believers. Satan would have everyone worship Jesus as GOD and not come into the realization of the power of the Christ. Satan fears the Christ he did not fear Jesus that is why he attempted to tempt him. Many so-called Christians are fooled to worship Jesus as GOD. Any church, religion, spirtual movement that teaches hate is of Satan. There has been more hate and death in the name of Jesus than any other name on the face of this earth. Likewise there are many who worhip Christ as Jesus and they understand the power of Christ and the Love of GOD. Those people who worhip Jesus and believe that others who do not are dammed are the people who realy worhip Satan. It is the context that Jesus is used by Satan to get believers to worhip Jesus as GOD that Jesus becomes the anti-christ.
Jesus when worshiped as GOD is the Anti-Christ. He is fullfilling the work of Satan.
You have gone on many lentghy tagents arguing points that are not at dispute. I orginally set out to question the devinity of Jesus and that is the argument I would like you to consider. Do not tell me that Christ is GOD. Do not tell me that Jesus Christ is GOD. Those are not my questions. Tell me clearly how Jesus alone is GOD. Show me were Jesus alone claims to be GOD.
I would like you to explain from a logical point of view or a spiritual one How can GOD be tempted with something he already possess. Do not tell me how GOD can be tempted that is not my question. My questions is How can anyone be tempted by something they already have. You can not offer my car to me as a temptation I already own it. How is it then that Satan could tempt GOD with all the kingdoms of the world? God already possessed the Glory of all Kingdoms all things.
You can only come to one conclusion. Satan was tempting a man, not GOD, with Glory. That man having Christ manefested in him withstood the temptation and ordered Satan to worship GOD.
I have asked you to restudy the Bible and to search for Christ. You choose to ignor that request and instead try to convince me and others that Jesus is GOD. You offer lengthy arguments from the Bible and web sites. You defend your position with passion. You do not pray about it or ask GOD for truth. If I worshiped the devil and I thought I was worshipping GOD I guess I would seek high and low for as many resources to support my false belief. I would not want to consider the hard questions that may shed light on my false belief.
Why do you continue to offer a barrage of scriptures on points that were never debated instead of addressing the original question asked.
If Jesus is GOD how could Satan tempt him with something GOD alrady has?
As for the Bible. I believe the Bible was written by men who tried there best to share stories and lessons that will help us understand the nature of GOD. I use the Bible as a resource to help me draw closer to my GOD. I do not believe that the Bible is perfect. There are too many contridictions for the Bible to be considered perfect. That beinng said I think everyone should read it, understand it and try to live by the teachings in it.
I ask that you only respomd to my original question.
With Love to you and all that read this.
JLOB

All About Jesus Christ

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