by Vanderhoven7 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
He spoke to Jesus because he saw him in a vision, just as for exampl Daniel and John, spoke to angels in their visions. What do you think about my first point?
Jesus taught to pray to his father. You say we should also pray to Jesus. So how I should decide to whom I will pray? Maybe take turns, one day to Jesus and the other to God?
Hi, @Person🙂...
Prayer is a form of worship. Stephen and John weren't "praying to" or "worshipping" Jesus. They were just talking to him, just like Mary talked to Gabriel when he showed up and when other faithful ones in the past talked to spirit creatures who showed up.
Jesus talked to the angels who visited him in the wilderness to minister to him and in the garden to comfort him. Jesus also talked to Satan the wicked spirit creature ("Go away, Satan!") Spiritism is clearly condemned, but it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible "don't talk to spirit creatures".
Jesus could read hearts when on earth, how much more so he is aware if someone is talking to him now. He told us how to pray. He told us to pray to the Father Jehovah, so we don't pray to Jesus. But there is no rule in the Bible that says you can't say "I know you are there, Jesus, and I love you."
Jesus said whatever we pray to Jehovah for, Jesus will do it, when we ask in Jesus' name. We don't have to end every single prayer with a repeated by rote "in Jesus name, Amen." That's not what Jesus taught when the disciples asked him how to pray. If you are thanking Jehovah or praising Jehovah in prayer, you don't have to tack on some kind of memorized phrase at the end. Jesus just said if we are making a request, we can show we recognize Jesus' authority and God-given role to Jehovah's glory when we include in that request the acknowledgement that it is through Jesus the request will be filled.
We might say something like, "please, Jehovah, let Jesus be king now and bring your Kingdom, and please through Jesus make provision for us today. And thank you for the lovely songbirds and the rain today, Amen." Or whatever similar thing, you know what I mean - Jesus said not to have "memorized" prayers and the way some JWs tack on that "in-Jesus-name-Amen" thing has become a sort of "memorized" addition rather than an expression of faith in God's chosen one.
Hi, @Sea Breeze🙂...
Where in the Bible does it say not to talk to angels?
(The "good" angels aren't going around appearing and talking to anybody right now anyways, and it's not smart to talk to God's enemies the wicked angels, but I'm just saying when anybody at the Watchtower made that "rule" about "not supposed to talk to spirits at all" they don't have any scriptures to back it up. The Bible says not to do spiritism, which is different. Paul, Stephen, and John were not doing spiritism when they talked to Jesus in his spirit form. Mary was not doing spiritism when she talked to Gabriel, etc. During the great tribulation, at a certain point there will be good spirit creatures appearing here and it will definitely be advisable to talk to them. When the anointed are resurrected and gathered by the angels, they will be visible just like Jesus was visible and talked to people. Jehovah doesn't do resurrections in the dark. He does them where they will bring Him glory, in the light. "And every eye will see him...")
He said he'd be with us all the days. After his resurrection, at times he was in the room with them and they didn't realize it until after he materialized. He died for us and he loves us. It's not wrong to talk to him. He can hear and he has a heart. (The WTBTS is always trying to cause divisions.)
Easy Prompt: I agree with you almost completely except for this sentence :
But there is no rule in the Bible that says you can't say "I know you are there, Jesus, and I love you."
That is for me a prayer and as you said prayer is form of worship so in my opinion you contradict yourself in that point.
Vanderhoven7:.
You're right, the account in the Acts says nothing about Stephen's second vision, but it also says nothing about his vision ending before he was led out of the city.
Calling upon the name of Jesus as far I'm concerned doesn't mean praying to Jesus
Maybe take turns, one day to Jesus and the other to God?
@ Person
Well why not? Ever prayed to Jehovah for your sins to be forgiven? Why don't you try asking Jesus :
1. to forgive your sins
2. give you life forever
3. to make you a permanent member of God's family
Here are some common sense reasons to pray to Jesus:
1. I'm sure you are aware that the Father judges no one, but has comitted ALL of the judging to the Son. So, why continue to ignore him? Doesn't make any sense. What if you appeared in court (and you most certainly will after you die according to Hebrews 9: 27) and refused to address the Judge? Instead, you ignore him and direct all your appeals to the baliff or maybe to the court reporter, or someone else. How do you think that will go over? Seems pretty dumb. Some may say that such a person deserves what he gets, not because of his crimes, but on grounds of stupidity alone!
2. Jesus has the power and authority to forgive your sins. ' "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house". And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed' - Mark 2
3. Jesus said, "Come to me" (not Jehovah) and I will give you rest, life, joy etc.
In the Old testament, the phrase "thus saith the Lord" appears over 400 times. But in the New Testament, it doesn't appear even once. I wonder why this is so? However, Jesus said over 100 times in the NT, "I say unto you" because he is "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3: 16 - MEV, KJV, NKJ)
Jesus also said, "Ye have not because ye ask not".
Why don't you start praying to Jesus and see if you get better results than you did when you disobediently appealed to Jehovah as a WT publisher?
Maybe start with addressing God as "Lord" and let Him sort out your praises, requests, forgiveness, etc.
At least you would not be disrespectful to the One with the power to forgive your sins.
"Instead, you ignore him and direct all your appeals to the baliff or maybe to the court reporter, or someone else."
Considering your court example it seems to me that you are comparing the supreme God to baliff or a reporter... Comparing Jesus to court judge I would compare his Father to a Supreme Judge. See Psalm 94:2
@ Person - Jesus is the only judge you will ever know if you don't deal with him first. You will face Jesus and talk to him one day whether you acknowledge his position as judge or not.
Why not check to see what his terms for peace are, before you seek a higher Magistrate? Maybe his terms are acceptable? That is the idea behind a short little parable not quoted much in Luke 14 :
“Or what king, going to wage war against another king, does not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Otherwise, while the other is yet at a distance, he sends a delegation and requests conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, any of you who does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
You are the King of your own life apart from God as a child of Adam. You are the King with only 10K troops. Jesus is the coming King/Judge/Liberator with 20K troops. If you think you are moral enough to not deal with Jesus and appeal straight to Jehovah for justice, mercy and sonship... go for it. If not, maybe check with Jesus first to see if the terms for peace with God are acceptable?
It's just common sense.
@Person... I know you are there, and I love you. Am I saying a prayer to you when I say that? (Nope.🙂) You are "invisible" to me as far as I can't see you with my physical eyes right now. But I know you are there. If I tell you I love you, am I saying a prayer to you? I am not saying a prayer to you. I know you can "hear" me via what I am typing, and I am not ashamed to talk to you, just like I am not ashamed to talk to Jesus. I know you can hear me, and I know he can hear me too. He is not "answering back" with words that we can hear at this time, but that doesn't mean we can't talk to him. Talking to someone is not prayer. I can talk to you without worshipping you. I can talk to Jesus without worshipping him. Just because we can't hear Jesus when he speaks or just because we can't see him right now doesn't mean he isn't listening or that it is wrong to talk to him.
"Listen, you who are deaf;
Look and see, you who are blind.
Who is blind except my servant,
So deaf as the messenger I send?
Who is so blind as the one rewarded,
So blind as the servant of Jehovah?" (Isaiah 42:8,9)
We are "deaf" in so many ways, but that doesn't mean Jesus and Jehovah are deaf. We are "blind" in so many ways, but that doesn't mean Jehovah and Jesus can't see.
"He does great and unsearchable things,
Wonderful things that cannot be counted.
He passes by me, and I cannot see him;
He moves past me, but I do not discern him." (Job 9:10,11)
They can hear when we speak. They know whether we are praying or just talking.
"The One who made the ear, can he not hear?
The One who formed the eye, can he not see?" (Psalm 94:9)
Why is prayer an act of worship? Because it requires you to believe that the person you are addressing exists, can hear you and has power to help you. It requires FAITH. For this reason, there is no such thing as prayer to a living man, even if he is far from us. For the same reason talking to Jesus IS in my opinion always a prayer except you see him in a vision which I think doesn't happen in our days. But I don't want to argue with you, I pray to God for those who love him and his Son Jesus🙂
