Posted in another thread...help me to reason this out, please!

by berylblue 27 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  berylblue

  Now here's a question This always bothered me. Using the example of the Flood, JWs were told that few would be saved at Armegeddon. Also quoting Jesus when he said that few are the ones finding the road to everlasting life. T

  However, the WTS would say that the "vast majority" of those "tested" after the thousand year reign would be faithful.

  So I'm thinking, well HOW IS THAT FAIR? And how does that even make sense?

  The people at the end of this system are living in a nightmare. The people at the end of the 1000 year reign would, supposedly, be living in Paradisaic conditions free of human imperfection. Now, while the WTS does not bother to explain what the loosed demons would be up to or how bad that time period will be, (no, it's not discussed in the Bible but when has the WTS ever had a problem "filling in the blanks" before?)

  To my mind that is in no way, shape or form a fair test. The odds are completely with those who were fortunate enough to die prior to A. and have been resurrected. Yet the poor persons who had to endure the terrible "last days" in this system but did not become JWs are dead meat. Literally.

  Also, only JWs will be saved at A. Okay, but how about those who would have become JWs had time gone on? Is it fair that they die because Armegeddon came before a time in their lives when they could get to know Jehovah?

  I asked a few "good" Witnesses about this. (You can be damned sure I didn't ask any elders; I'd have gotten into a heap of trouble.)

  They all told me that it's what you are doing NOW that is important. No matter if you were a good JW for years, but stopped going because you're suicidally depressed because your husband beats the hell out of you and your children. That does not come in to play, according to those with whom I spoke.

  Anyway....

  Further reasoning on this, I came to the conclusion that if A. had come when I was, say, 10, I would have been destroyed. Hell, I didn't even know what a JW was then. But as my parents were Catholics I, apparently, was doomed.

  Yet I did go on to become a a JW. At that time (when I was a "good" JW), my "heart" was apparently in a good condition, but prior to becoming baptized it was not?

  Either I have a good heart or not. End of story. True, circumstances can change and embitter a person, and "good" and honest persons can make bad decisions, but generally, in the final analysis, a truly honest hearted person stays that way.

  I'm typing fast and I'm rambling here. If anyone can help me crystalize my thoughts and give them some shape and substance, I'd truly appreciate it.

  Beryl
• 

  Gopher

  That's right, Beryl. Only JW's will be saved at Armageddon (although you have to be discerning to catch that through all their double-talk on the subject). The EVERLASTING destiny of people may depend on how well they react to someone coming up to their door and giving them a hasty, poorly prepared magazine presentation. They may be good-hearted, but it doesn't matter, if they don't believe what the Watchtower publishing corporation is preaching as "present truth", they will be bird food at God's day of Armageddon which is right around the corner (as usual).

  And at the end of the 1000 years, those who are on Satan's side are as "the sands of the sea" or a large number - the Revelation book doesn't say whether they constitute a minority or a majority. And even BEFORE the thousand years are over, a person can prove unfaithful to Jehovah's kingdom rule and "die at the age of 100, though a mere boy" according to the book of Isaiah.

  So you see Beryl, in this arrangement of things, there are ALL SORTS of chances to die. Before Armageddon, 100 years into the new system, AND at the end of the new system, and probably any-ole-time in between when you get on the elders' (erm, princes') bad side!!

  The road to everlasting life is booby-trapped with all sorts of pitfalls. That way it's equally unfair for everyone.

  Oh by the way, those resurrected to life during the 1000 years also "are as angels and do not have children" which JW's interpret to mean they will be forced to be celibate in their everlasting life. When they find out they're of the "non child bearing class" who didn't have the privilege to be of the "great crowd that survived Armageddon", no doubt a number of these of the "untouchable" celibate class will commit mass suicide, facing the prospect of no nookie forever.

  Gopher of the can't-be-sarcastic-enough class
• 

  Satanus

  More sarcasm, but only because wt theology really doesn't make sense.

  Jehovah is like a beaureacrat who is stuck w a mess on his hands. He can't just toss the whole thing because he made it, and so has responsibility for it. I'm not sure if it would bother him to just toss it, but others looking on would get a bad impression of him, since he is supposedly all knowing and perfect and all. He wants to end it, but he can't make up his mind as to when would be the best time, since, as you say, some always change later on. He probably wishes an asteroide would wipe it out, as that would take it out of his hands.

  Back when he still had balls, when he wiped out everyone with the flood, would have been a good time to start reigning on the earth, but he wasn't ready. You see, while god had no problem killing people back then, he had a problem accepting even totally obedient and faithful ones like noah. God solved his little hangup by killing what was supposedly the best, most perfect man ever produced by humans, jesus, yet he wasn't really a human production, since all humans were sinners and jesus somehow wasn't.

  Another reason god couldn't start ruling after the flood, was because he had no one who could rule for him. He couldn't do it himself, because he doesn't understand humans, his creation, well enough. Also, if he was living on earth, who would run the heavens? God can't be in more than one place at a time, can he?

  SS
• 

  blondie

  Beryl, in the beginning of the WTS, the focus was merely to gather in those going to heaven. Then the infrastructure, governments, religion, would be done away with in 1914. The vast majority of humankind was expected to remain alive on earth to be joined by those resurrected receiving second prize, life on earth. It wasn't until Rutherford's time that the focus was off gathering the anointed, because almost all of them had been found by 1935, and the gathering of the numberless great crowd. Then those that didn't listen would be condemned to eternal death rather than the second prize of life on earth.

  I was surprised when I started reading Russell's books to realize that he did not preach the death of the general population, just a few. He didn't advocate trying to preach to all the vast general population, that they would receive education from God and a chance to change after the destruction of earthly governments and religion in 1914.

  Blondie
• 

  Ravyn

  here's something to think about:

  Is Jehovah Almighty? Is He justified in destroying wickedness and those who choose it over righteousness? Then why does he resort to archaic and ineffectual methods of destruction like floods and fire-storms(aka Armageddon)? If mere humans can develope WMD that can vaporize life in the blink of an eye--why can't an Almighty God with an axe to grind? Why would he bother to make it so difficult, ineffectual and cost prohibitive? And if it is only the holy guidebook that is dated---why doesn't He upgrade it to keep up with human evolution? wouldn't that atleast appeal to more humans today?

  Could it be that just MAYBE the answer lies in the fact that the Bible is an ancient conglomeration of myths that at the time of their telling were cutting edge technology to ignorant and superstitious rank and file?

  Look at the idea of a 'written word' as a Holy Book itself---surely 'god' could have done better than that! Why would 'god' limit himself to human development? If a 1st grader is computer literate--where are the Holy DVDs from the Superior Divine Deities?

  Ravyn
• 

  gumby

  However, the WTS would say that the "vast majority" of those "tested" after the thousand year reign would be faithful.

  Actually they DON'T say that from what I remember. Go to the Revelation book and look at the chapter that deals with this time period. You will see a picture of those who turn rebelious surrounding the SMALL faithful group in the "holy camp". Those who "go with Satan BY FAR ...out number those who prove faithful.

  This ALWAYS bothered me that if I was to survive Armaggedon, the chances would be good that I would turn the "other way" when Satan was let lose at the end of the 1000 years........what a hope eh?

  Gumby
• 

  Kaethra

  You're right Beryl, it isn't fair, nor is it logical. (But then again, show me something in the bible that is logical!)

  Another thing that always bothered me is along the lines of what you mentioned about a person's "heart condition". JWs go on and on about how so and so had the right heart condition and accepted the "truth". For some reason though, after baptism, so and so is repeatedly warned not to trust his heart, as it is treacherous. So, it's trust your heart if you agree with us, but don't trust it if you don't. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
• 

  Realist

  beryl,

  if you look for logic in the WTS teachings you won't be successful!

  the answer of the rf JW would be that jehovah is perfectly righteous and just and that this is the perfect way to handle things!
• 

  Ravyn

  <<<This ALWAYS bothered me that if I was to survive Armaggedon, the chances would be good that I would turn the "other way" when Satan was let lose at the end of the 1000 years........what a hope eh?

  Gumby>>>

  so since a perfect Adam and Eve screwed it up to start with, then does that mean that it is easier to be 'faithful' if you are imperfect? Why would anyone think that if they could succeed under the worst circumstances that they could not do it under the best?

  Ravyn
• 

  Max Divergent

  Ahh...

  The issue is the urgent need to remove the evil present regime along with it's (witting or unwitting) supporters and weapons (inc polution etc) of mass destruction that are ruining the earth. A decisive blow must be struck to remove the tyrant Satan and liberate those of human kind who are willing to receive that which is benificial to all humans of all cultures so they too can enjoy the fruits of freedom under the interim administration of Jesus.Then the liberated good people can grow and florish and determine their own path by the time they are ready to strike up their own direct relationship with God.

  That some 'nice people' who were misled or ignorent may perish through their closeness to the regime is unfortunate, but that collateral damage is unavoidable and for the greater good of freedom from the horrors of the current system for the willing. The outcome is certain.

  Well... it'd be somthing like that anyhow... I came to think that the JW's really were a very right-wing group in socio-political terms, and this scenario is one that makes sense to right-wing folk. Just like current events really...

  Cheers, Max