"They take you in there and you never come out." (page 2)

hillary_step

Expat,

I wonder where, when all this torture was happening, were the protests of the "peace" crowd? I wonder why they didn't consider mass torture worth protesting about? Why they haven't (and still don't) protest all the many wars happening around the world? Why is it that they suddenly only become motivated for "peace" when the US gets involved in a war?

I know where you are coming from and to a great degree am in agreement with you, however the argument you present above is emotive and not very fair to those who still feel that real diplomacy, not a 'Treaty of Versaille' type arrangement was never entered into.

You see, to show balance in your argument one needs to ask where all the opinions of the pro-war group regarding Saddam have been hiding these past dozen years. I would almost guarantee that a year ago many people posting to this Board who are now vigorously in favor of this monster being dealt with, would cheerfully have given Iraq little if any thought as they skimmed the papers in Starbucks. I would respect their outrage more if we could see a pattern of such concerns over the years and an outrage that is equally apparent dealing with the dozen or so Saddam's who waste space on this planet. Were they agitating for Saddams demise two years ago, Five months ago, some even five weeks ago?

For example Syria has torture chambers that equal Saddams. After this war is over, will the pro-war group take it upon themselves to demand that the US Government show equal gusto in tearing down the barbaric Syrian armed forces?

Best regards - HS

wasasister

I heard an interview this afternoon with a young Tibetan nun who was recently released from a Chinese prison. The conditions there are horrible. She is 26 years old and has been in prison since age 13. She was routinely beaten and tortured.

This is but one of many regimes where human rights are nil and people suffer every day.

Hillary asks good questions above: where is/was your concern for these people? Are their lives less valuable than the suffering Iraqis?

What, precisely, is the responsibility of the USA in ridding the planet of oppressive leaders?

Questions I'd like to hear a war advocate answer clearly.

Wasa

rem

Wasa,

The issue is that the war justification does not hinge on human rights violations. Disarmament is the justification. The only reason human rights violations are brought up is to counter criticism from the anti-war crowd that war is more harmful for the Iraqis than the status quo.

What, precisely, is the responsibility of the USA in ridding the planet of oppressive leaders?

In direct answer to this question, I would say, "absolutely none", even though we have stepped in for humanitarian reasons in the past.

rem

hillary_step

Rem,

The issue is that the war justification does not hinge on human rights violations. Disarmament is the justification. The only reason human rights violations are brought up is to counter criticism from the anti-war crowd that war is more harmful for the Iraqis than the status quo.

The human rights issue is not being used in the way you define above, It is being used by the 'pro-war' faction to smear the opposition by trying to link it and an anti-war, pro-diplomacy stance, with a lack of concern for dying children. This is nonsense. As some of us keep trying to point out dying children and tortured Iraqis are just flavor of the month with many of these people, who when this war is over will slip back into their regular routines and forget the dying and tortured, who have no CNN voice granted to them, in many other areas of this planet.

As to the issue of 'disarmament', it is hard to keep track of the US changing goal-posts on this issue for it was for reason of disarmament of weapons of mass destruction, not conventional weapons, that the Coalition originally invaded Iraq, that coupled with a direct link between Iraq and 9/11. Both have yet to be proved, hence the focus on other issues. Every country under International Law has a right to an army to protect its borders, even countries whose politics and methodology we may repudiate.

Best regards - HS

dubla

h.s.-

The human rights issue is not being used in the way you define above

personally, i think it is.....(i think its also used in the ways you describe in your post). it is used to counter those that claim the iraqis are better off without us "liberating" them, and that there are far more iraqis killed by u.s./u.n. sanctions than by saddam himself. i guess the latter half of that claim also begs the question (along the lines that you and expat are going), where was the wholehearted disgust for these sanctions two years ago? why werent there threads every day about the dying children who didnt have enough medicine and food? so....are they now being used for the anti-war/anti-bush agenda? of course they are.

as far as no one caring about saddam being in power all these years....personally i can attest to many people i know (myself included), that have for many years discussed saddams ousting...wondering when it would come, and hoping it would be sooner than later. personally i hoped we would simply finish the job the first time, and get him out of power after/during the gulf war....and ive hoped hed be out ever since. is it worth making a daily discussion topic out of it, when the actions to remove him could be (and have since proved to be) years away? especially with clinton in office for 8 years...it was kind of a given that saddams ousting wouldnt get a huge push from the u.s.

as far as syria goes (and all the rest of them), i also personally hope there is some end in sight to the torture. i hope that we make a stand against them all, but im sure thats wishful thinking. i think it would be great if the u.s. or u.n. could take each issue one at a time, and deal with it in the best way possible, using force when needed. im not naive enough to think that they will all be at the top of our priority list simply for humanitarian reasons.....but i do think its a wonderful good that will come out of this particular war. it might not be the primary reason we invaded, but the iraqis will be much better off as a people once this is over. i read a local article the other day about the majority of the detroit area iraqi population, and their plans to return to their homeland after the war. i wonder why theyve been waiting?

aa

Englishman

Ex-pat Brit makes some good points and I agree that it is pathetic to see his points being made fun of.

I also don't see the logic behind the argument "why pick on Iraq when other countries do it too?" type of reasoning.

Sure the US and the UK have their own agenda's in this war. Maybe Saddam's eventual disempowering will send out a clear signal to the other countries that abuse human rights as a means of controlling their citizens.

As for the oil thing, if that's a bonus, so what?

Englishman.

rem

HS,

The human rights issue is not being used in the way you define above, It is being used by the 'pro-war' faction to smear the opposition by trying to link it and an anti-war, pro-diplomacy stance, with a lack of concern for dying children

I enjoy your reasoned posts about this issue. I do agree that some are doing exactly what you say, but I think the majority of 'pro-war' (I hate these labels ) people are using it in a defensive posture because they are tired of hearing 'baby killer, baby killer' from the 'anti-war' crowd. I know I am. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't believe that any well adjusted individual lacks concern for dying children.

As far as the reason for the war being confused, I think this is just a result of people talking about what is more interesting at the moment. People have been talking about this situation for months. The WMD and broken UN resolutions have already been talked to death. Now that the war is happening and the gruesome face of war is staring us in the face, I think it is natural for most conversations to vere towards this subject. In the process people do loose sight on the real reason for the war. This, I think, is just human nature.

I do respect your views a lot. I think you've put a lot of thought into your perspective whereas I think a lot of people on both sides have just made knee-jerk reactions.

rem

Seven

Hey Expie,

Responses pretty much as expected

No big surprise, eh?

Some info if you're interested:

https://ssl.ctsg.com/amnestyusa/donations/index.asp?ms=S1&cde=A

http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/join.asp?ms=S1

"They take you in there and you never come out."

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