well, what do i say to this? jehovah said, he will have an organization. she wants me to go to the meetings and read literature to become more focused. yeah right! she also says that the apostate literature i read, may not have all the truth. i said that it came from an ex governing body member. (crisis of conscience and in search of christian freedom - raymond franz) i said the wbts would sue if they found fault in his words. she adamantly stated that they wouldn't - because it's not up to them to defend themselves, that vengeance will be jehovah's.... she said she read that somewhere. so is this true? would they sue? any help would be appreciated.
my sister called
by free will 15 Replies latest jw friends
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free will
she also said that, regarding the un scandal, that they had a reason, and it was probably part of jehovah's grand plan.!!!! ?? that he has used sinners before to help his cause. she mentioned the ethiopian eunich, where he said in a nutshell - he needed help to understand the scriptures... (her reasoning for listening to the society's 'light'...
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Jesika
I am not for sure that the reason your sister stated for the society not to sue is the real reason. Ok, I am sure that's not the reason.
I do know however, that ANY negative info is considered "apostate". Which keeps the loyal JW's from investigating anything the society has done wrong.
"New light" = we f***ed up, so now this is what we are going to do now.
Keep reading up on what they have done and are doing. Are you familiar with the sexual abuse scandal that's going on???
Go to silentlambs.org and you will find PLENTY of info there on that issue as well.
Jes
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Gopher
Free will,
It's hard to know exactly what to say to a dyed-in-the-wool dub. How often does she call? Are you two close at all? The mention of her "calling" seems a bit distant to me, but I'm only guessing.
If you're not that close, you may just have to keep going your separate ways as you already are. If she insists, you may wish to say "let's not talk about religion -- let's just agree to disagree in that area". If she again brings up the need to "focus" and read Watchtower-brand "current truth" (filled with ideas that will change again in a number of years), then tell her yes if she will "focus" and read COC or ISOCF. There's no way a JW can read that and remain unaffected.
Organization? Where does the Bible use that word? (Remember that the WTS publications argue against the words 'trinity' and 'limbo' on the basis that those terms do not appear in the Bible. Turnabout is fair play!!)
Best wishes.
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JamesThomas
Free Will, How are you doing? My advice is to get real familiar with your own heart. Become very clear on how your heart feels about the idea of a god who will kill you if you do not honor and love him. After searching your heart, and if you find it impossible to truly and honestly love such a tiny concept of god....then break clear of it, and leave your sisters beliefs and fears to her. You wont need to discuss them anymore, or be confused by them. Often times, most of our confusion when first discovering that the "truth" is not truth, is caused by a mind still full of beliefs and interpretations about what is or is not true. The easiest way to get through this muck is to step out of it. Learn how to quite the mind and shift attention to your silent heart and sense of Being within. There is great Wisdom there; just waiting for you. Focus on you. Look within yourself for answers. The true Source of this wonderful universe is not so tiny as to be absent from where you are. JamesT
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free will
thanks for the info jesika. i'm only just learning all the scandals of the wbts. i will indeed check out that site. Gopher, we aren't too close emotionally or physically. at times, we try to be there for each other though. i would suggest the book to her but, i know, she'd drop it like a hot potatoe. such a good dubbie. ;) you made an interesting point as regards the word organization being actually in the bible. i wonder how she could refute that logic. JT - i'm curious to know your view on god. does he exist for you? i agree my mind is still packed with all the old beliefs and the question of what is the truth. i've been sheepish so long that i find it difficult to lead and not to follow. but, even that has taken its toll on my body, with anxiety problems that have been diagnosed. the reason for my health issues seem to point toward my inner conflict with the organization. presently, i feel there is a god and that i don't need an organization to have a relationship with him. thanks for all your support
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JamesThomas
Free Will wrote:
"JT - i'm curious to know your view on god. does he exist for you? i agree my mind is still packed with all the old beliefs and the question of what is the truth. i've been sheepish so long that i find it difficult to lead and not to follow. but, even that has taken its toll on my body, with anxiety problems that have been diagnosed. the reason for my health issues seem to point toward my inner conflict with the organization. presently, i feel there is a god and that i don't need an organization to have a relationship with him."
You are wise FW. Inner conflict can indeed cause health problems; but they can also be a blessing if they motivate us to seek deeper. You ask my view on God, and does he exist for me. It's a long story, but there came a moment when I realized that the only boundaries, or borders, or limits to God (or what that word points to) existed only in my mind. So a belief in a tiny god, a person god, a god as an object or a thing out there -- ended. What took the place of this belief, was not a belief, but a living-sense. No longer was there a belief about God that I could write down in words and pass on to someone else. God, was no longer an intellectual exercise. There were no more mental engraven images as to what God was or was not. I only knew that I did not know. Not in a way that could be described. Yet, there was a knowing, a taste, a conscious understanding that the most intimate aliveness of my being was none-other than the infinite Source of all things. So, does God exist for me? No...not as a "him", or a thing outside of me. Not as an anthropomorphic deity, or person. I have no beliefs about God, or image within my mind labeled "God". Many would consider me an atheist. For me, God is not in the universe. The universe is in God. God is the Infinite from which all comes, and into which all will return. Actually, I don't much like the word "GOD". It comes with too much baggage (beliefs, concepts, ideas and interpretations) that have nothing to do with the Source of all existence. Words about God/Truth are not God, as reading a menu is not the meal. This sense and experience of God is not unique to me, though indeed it is the most intimate of intimacy. Others know. Some are on this board. It's no big deal really, so much as beginning to see what has always been here. Beginning to know yourself. The key is not to look outside of yourself, not to look away from right here, where you are. Even when you see something, like a sunset or a mountain stream, where is the sense of beauty and awe? Within you, not out there. Go within the sense of aliveness and being at your center, and rest there. Be open, still and silent. Trust, that what you seek is there. Go to that place in you that radiates when you feel love. Put up your sword. Be open and willing. Be gentle and still. You are right FW "there is a God and you don't need an organization to have a relationship with him". But don't take my word for it. Discover it for yourself. You can't follow anyone into your deepest Self. JamesT
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free will
jt..."go to that place in you that radiates when you feel love"...easier said than done...for me... i've found that over time i have become disassociated from my feelings. although i realize this, it's hard to tap back into them. i suppose, it's from the wbts, expecting us, to go with the flow. we are expected to be no part of this world, but that seems to be defined, in action, as voyeurs of the world. not nurturing our own thought process. in a nutshell, i've forgotten how to be me. jw's seem to be blinded not necessarily by political correctness but by spiritual correctness. so we tend to forget how to be ourselves and become what is expected of us on the outside. for me, that dual life promoted inner conflict. conflict that i did not even know was there. at least, until, dizziness and panic attacks told me there was something wrong. i don't think we were meant to live in conflict. i think we were meant to choose our own life path, regardless of the wbts...and hopefully, it would live up to what is required of us by god (or absolute rightness) not by men. keep it up jt - you are better than my therapist.
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jgnat
You are getting good advice about the futility of arguing with someone who will not listen. It is a wiser choice to become strong and build your own faith up. That will likely take some personal investigation and soul-searching on your part. But I guarantee the journey is worth it.
On the other hand, I could not resist responding to this bit of convoluted reasoning.
regarding the un scandal, that they had a reason, and it was probably part of jehovah's grand plan.!!!! ?? that he has used sinners before to help his cause
Yes, let’s look at the biblical example of sinners being used by God, shall we? Pharoah, Judas, and the Pharisees were all used by Jehovah to accomplish his will. The Pharisees accurately prophesied that Jesus would die on behalf of the people, and then helped bring that prophecy to fulfillment (John 11:49-53). It is true that Jehovah uses all circumstances and all men to bring about His will. The big question is, does the WTS really want to be associated with the unrighteous, or do they want to stand on the side of honesty, truth, and light? Light and darkness cannot be in the same place at once.
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JamesThomas
Yes, so true "we become disassociated with our feelings" and indeed the JW idea of "spiritual correctness" helps to facilitate this. There is an analogy in the Bible, the Pharisees. Here was a group of people very "spiritually correct". They knew the scriptures, the practices, the laws and the ceremony....but they were ignorant of and disconnected (seemingly) from the truth of their own Being. They were not so much "spiritual" as carnal and temporal. Everything of meaning and significance for them was material. God was a person, a thing, an object. The Kingdom of God, was a place in space and time. Sound familiar? Jesus knew better. He was very much awake to his Oneness with the Source, that which he called Father. He told the Pharisees that the Kingdom (the presence of God/Truth) was not "Lo here, or lo there", in space and time....but rather "within you". Of course the Pharisees were blind to this and insulted; and did not want to hear it. The Witnesses don't want to hear it either and so changed the scripture to point back into time and space. Oh, well. That is not our concern so much, as is our own self; right here, right now. The way home is through investigation, not through creating another belief system. When all mental created images of what is true and what is not -- are gone -- what is there then? Truth, does not require us to believe in it. It stands on it's own. Beliefs change. Truth, does not. What is it within you that does not change? What is it within you that is not effected by all the goings on around it? What is already whole and complete, and at peace? What is it that you do not have to earn or jump through hoops to get? Who are you really? So, find out. Investigate and inquire into your own self. Observe the workings of the mind and how it continually and frantically weaves an identity out of thoughts and feelings. An identity that is fragile and broken, and (thank God) an illusion. It's not about getting or acquiring something that you don't already have. It's about seeing the false as false. It's about seeing what blinds us to the truth that is. The doorway is this moment; right here and now where you are. Be gentle and easy, and just see how your attention is drawn into thoughts, fears and desires, past and future. See clearly how when you are lost in the mind and it's continual commentary and judgments, that you are no longer present, in the moment with what is, and so there is tension and strife. Don't judge the mind for pulling you away. When you notice you are not present, simply come back to the moment of existence without thinking about it. For example, when you do the dishes, really be with them. Sense how they appreciate your attention and your presence. I know this may sound silly, but it's amazing the sense of life that can be perceived and felt in everything when we are truly and silently present. It's as if all walls and boundaries have dropped and we are in communion with each little dish. Washing their tops, and scrubbing their little bottoms. It can be quite beautiful.......then, the mind steps back in and...swoosh! you're no longer present with life. You are back in an empty and dead interpretation of reality, rather than truly one with reality. This may sound too simple. But, the Truth that we seek is present. Is here. It's not that God is not present, it's that we are not. Be confident that the beauty, love and peace that you yearn for has not and never has been taken from you. We just need to rediscover It. It may help if you can spend more time in nature and away from the rat race. It's not necessary, because what we seek is within, but it can help, as nature itself is very present and alive. Let it teach you. JamesT