No Bible = No God?
by menrov 113 Replies latest watchtower bible
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venus
ttdtt,
Ocean doesn’t have to provide fishes proofs that convince them of its existence. Similarly, God doesn’t have to provide humans proofs that convince us of His existence because humans did not come here and invent the eternal tree-seed mechanism that ensures food for humans in all varieties that take care of their varying tastes. If a person doesn’t see this life-support system as the proof of God’s existence, it is enough for God that he silently enjoys those provisions and be happy about. Further, God doesn’t need to provide proof for His existence because He is not interested in our worship/gratitude—a fact that can be discerned from His not taking any action to straighten out the conflicted religions. If He wanted worship, He would have ensured a small book with absolute clarity with subject-wise division and index and almightily safeguarded it from getting corrupted.
Problem with people who ask for proof for God’s existence is that they have formulated their own concepts of God from books like Bible. But Bible is written by humans with poor imagination. They were simply inventing details thoughtlessly. For example, Abraham said his wife is his sister in two places, and Isaac in one place. The narratives occur in Genesis 12, 20 [Abram and Pharaoh & Abimelech] and 26 [Isaac and Abimelech]. Writer’s intellect is so petrified that he supplied the same incidents happening to each character. NT writers are also not different. Reporting so great as a news such as Jesus’ resurrection in the first written Gospel Mark, is finished with too little details: “He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.” (Mark 16:6, 7) John even supplies verses Jesus could have never spoken—saying Jesus did ascend into heaven at the very start of his ministry. (John 3:13) If one verse is invented, why not other verses, other incidents, everything else Bible says?
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ttdtt
Venus - How convenient.
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Onager
@Venus: Problem with people who ask for proof for God’s existence is that they have formulated their own concepts of God from books like Bible.
And yet you call God "He". Where did that concept come from?
Do the fishes call the sea "He"?
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venus
Onager,
Whether we should address God using terms such as it, He, She or not matters not. What matters is the essence behind our reasoning because humans did not invent the eternal tree-seed mechanism that ensures food for humans in all varieties that take care of their varying tastes. If a person doesn’t see this life-support system as the proof of God’s existence, it is enough for God that he silently enjoys those provisions and be happy about. Some do not see this as the proof of God’s existence because they see it every day and make use of it several times a day—hence it is taken for granted. Let us assume one day God withdraws this provision (made for support and enjoyment of life) then would not all humanity cry for the immediate reinstatement of this proof of His existence?
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Onager
Whether we should address God using terms such as it, He, She or not matters not.
Sorry to disagree with you Venus but it's the heart of the matter. As soon as you give any attribute to God, beyond being a non-interventionist creator who set reality in motion and then took no further part, then you enter the realm of extraordinary claims, for which there is no evidence,
You state that God is a he and that he "silently enjoys" providing humans with things. What is your proof that this is the case?
What if God is a she and she hates humanity because they insist on committing acts of destruction and not acts of creation?
What if God is a capricious child who created the universe by accident and then threw it away?
The fact is there is equal evidence to prove these propositions, including yours, i.e.: none.
The fact is that there are an infinite number of possibilities once you propose a creator God so the only logical position is to assume they are all false until there is any evidence to narrow the field.
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venus
Oager,
I read in between the lines, events and isms, and this is my conclusion:
Looking at events at an Olympic swimming pool, one cannot conclude swimmers are the emergent properties of the swimming pool.
Looking at things such as flowers, varied fruits and grains … that match our varied tastes I must conclude that they have been put in place for our enjoyment.
Looking at the history of nations (collective individuals) we find that their present is the result of past—good or bad. This must be true of every individual. Every seed/species reproduces its own kind, and everyone reaps what he sows: “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” (Luke 6:38) God’s role is illustrated in what Jesus said in Mathew 19:28: ‘God is the one who renews/recreate the provisions made for man’s sustenance and enjoyment whenever they are depleted/destroyed.’ When the old world ends, all the souls return to heaven, as though children returning for home from play ground, and remain there till the new world is recreated/renewed on earth, and start coming down to play in certain order. And cycle repeats.
In other words, life is not complicated. We descend to play and return home. Thus descending and returning alternate eternally. Certain degree of order makes life enjoyable; and simultaneously certain degree of disorder such as diseases, natural calamities make us want to return home. We cannot go on drinking/eating something sweet without its sweetness being felt diminishing. But when we alternate with something not sweet--we take a sip then have something not sweet, again have a sip ..., we enjoy sweetness again, and again. Principle is shown also by day and night. How boring it would be if we have only night.
In other words, the best definition for God is He is the servant of humanity because His role is only once in a cycle—to renew/recreate whenever situation calls for it. Then He goes into silence which means He is not interested in our worship/gratitude.
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Onager
Evidence?
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venus
Onager,
If God were not performing the act of renewal (Mathew 19:28) at the regular interval, universe would have gone into a state of darkness long back in view of the eternity. If universe exists, earth remains with its life support system … all go to show that God is in action. And my conviction is strengthened by what I read in the Book of Nature. In nature everything happens in cycles. Even history is a never-ending cycle of New World and Old World [or cycle of paradise earth becoming a hellish earth which would again be renewed to paradise earth]—something Jesus implied in Mathew 19:28. But this is very much seen in the Book of Nature. Nature has a rhythm and things happen in cycles—cycle of day and night, cycle of season, carbon cycle, nitrogen cycle… etc. There are cycles happening within us too—our breathing is a cycle of inhaling and exhaling; cells in our bodies become old and are being replaced with new ones at regular intervals! Even when we sleep at night, we typically go through several sleep cycles. And each one of these cycles consists of 4 different stages of sleep—awake, light sleep, deep sleep and REM sleep. Those cycles show a mutual interdependence and purpose. For example, each season emerges from the previous and gently turns into the next. Winter snows feed the ground for Spring’s blossoms. Summer’s heat ripens the plants for Fall’s harvest. While in day, we desire for night and vice versa. While in hot Summer we wish it was Fall. While in cold Winter we wish it was Spring. While in old, decadent world we wish for New World—and God does it in His time.
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Diogenesister
The Bible was most assuredly written by bronze age man and 1st century man. Albiet there is some wisdom contained within It, of course.
No one can prove there was, or was not, a first cause, an " unmoved mover" as Thomas Aquinas termed it.