No Bible = No God?

by menrov 113 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ttdtt
    ttdtt

    How is this even a thread? Perry you have FAITH in god.
    The conversation ends there.

    All religions require FAITH.

    Definition: A strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

    You know what - if god wanted, he could do 1 miracle right now and end the whole matter, but that won't happen.

    What keeps god for just having a booming voice out of the sky talk to EVERYONE all over the world and say - dudes I am god, this is what I want? Does he only want people to believe in him without proof?

    This is such a joke.

    Also I asked before Perry - The bible says god lives in a specific place - HEAVEN. DId HEAVEN exist before god, is it co-eternal with god, did god make heaven himself, if so when did he make it? How long was he around before he made heaven? If he was COMPLETE in himself, why did he need heaven? If he was complete why did he make jesus - if he made jesus to share something with him - how long was he around before jesus, and what changed that made him start wanting to create things - was he bored?

    Also on TIME. IF you believe in god - time was in existence before the Universe. It was not a creation at the time of the Universe birthday.
    Why? Track events. Were angels created before the Universe - the bible says yes - was jesus created before angels - the bible says yes - was god around before jesus - the bible says yes.

    These are all events in TIME.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Fink are you referring to this passage:

    And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow


    In each of the Gospels, the next event immediately after this promise from Jesus is the transfiguration. Rather than interpreting Jesus' promise as referring to His coming to establish His kingdom on earth, the context indicates that Jesus was referring to the transfiguration. The Greek word translated "kingdom" can also be translated "royal splendor," meaning that the three disciples standing there would see Christ as He really is—the King of heaven—which occurred in the transfiguration.

    ttdtt,

    All religions require FAITH.
    Definition: A strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.


    The vast majority of life in general requires faith. We accept what others have told us all the time. In a court, there is no way to go back in time and create some sort of scientific test to make sure the murder was committed by the accused. Jurors review the evidence, witness testimony as well as other line of evidence and make a decision based upon the preponderance of evidence.

    Based upon the things we know to be true, none of the explanations advanced to explain them in a naturalistic way are convincing. The ones put forward so far are actually more far fetched that the resurrection being true.

    As if they don't want the resurrection to be true, some keep kicking the can down the road and ignore both atheist and bible believing scholars when they state that the events were believed to have taken place when and where they are reported to in the gospels.

    If they can remove the events by several decades from the sources, then that opens the possibility of deception. But, that is not what scholars are saying.

    By Gary Habermas:

    My Minimal Facts Argument in favor of Jesus’ resurrection was developed many years ago while writing my PhD dissertation. It has two requirements for the historical facts that are used: each must be confirmed by several strong and independent arguments, plus the vast majority of even critical scholars must recognize the occurrence’s historical nature. The critical scholars can be liberal, skeptical, agnostic, or even atheist, as long as they are specialists in a relevant field of study, such as New Testament. Of these two requirements, it is important to recognize that the initial standard concerning strong evidential back-up is by far the most crucial.

    So why do even critical scholars admit or allow these individual historical facts? The answer is that each one is virtually undeniable. Most of the half-dozen Minimal Facts typically used are confirmed by ten or more historical considerations each. That is simply an amazing foundation, especially for events that occurred in the First Century AD!

    The half-dozen facts we usually use are these: 1) that Jesus died by crucifixion; 2) that very soon afterwards, his followers had real experiences that they thought were actual appearances of the risen Jesus; 3) that their lives were transformed as a result, even to the point of being willing to die specifically for their faith in the resurrection message; 4) that these things were taught very early, soon after the crucifixion; 5) that James, Jesus’ unbelieving brother, became a Christian due to his own experience that he thought was the resurrected Christ; and 6) that the Christian persecutor Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus) also became a believer after a similar experience.

    One “secret” not readily known is that these skeptical scholars are quite willing to cite New Testament texts in order to buttress the historical nature of these six events. While not believing that these passages are inspired or even generally reliable, they still employ the individual texts that meet their standards of evidence. It is largely from these passages, plus occasionally from extra-New Testament writings, that they find plenty of data to accept these half-dozen events.

    If you are interested in the historical back-up for these six facts admitted by virtually all scholars, as well as how these six can show that Jesus’ resurrection really happened, then attend the Saturday plenary lecture entitled, “Minimal Facts on the Resurrection that Even Skeptics Accept,” by Gary Habermas.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Guru Sathya Sri Baba only died in 1984. His list of 'miracles' including resurrections makes Jesus look like a child's party entertainer.

    In one example four men travelled from Australia to visit him in India. As they waited an attendant came out to ask one of them to come in as Sri Baba had a message for him. One of his family back home was ill and he needed to return urgently. He asked him to point out on a map on the wall where he was from. The man pointed to Australia and the guru touched the map which turned into a detailed map of Australia. He pointed again and again in increasing detail until he could identify his home. Then the guru invited him to step through the map and he would be transported immediately to his family.

    The man never came back out of the room.

    The attendants will testify to this miracle. So will the man's three friends and so will the man himself as will his family.

    This happened just a few decades ago. It was recorded within days. The names of the witnesses are known and still alive. How many 'indisputable facts' do you think we could enumerate?

    And yet we both know this story is bullshit. Probably based on wishful thinking, exaggeration, lies chinese whispers and self-promotion.

    Jesus' body almost certainly rotted in a mass grave or rubbish tip in Jerusalem. His presence with his followers was in the same sense that millions of others vividly feel the presence of dead loved ones. It is a human response to grief and loss. In time the 'spiritual' experience acquired literal details like a muddled story of an empty tomb as one disciple after another vied for the most profound experience of his presence.

    The truth is almost always more mundane.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Guru Sathya Sri Baba

    He was a money making scam artist , which in reflection is what makes up most religions.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Fink did you miss my point?
  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    Also I asked before Perry - The bible says god lives in a specific place - HEAVEN. DId HEAVEN exist before god, is it co-eternal with god, did god make heaven himself, if so when did he make it? How long was he around before he made heaven? If he was COMPLETE in himself, why did he need heaven?

    Hey, God exists outside of space and time so that universal laws and beginnings do not apply to him, but if it is convenient, then he has a physical place of "dwelling." If it is not convenient, it is a metaphor.

    It's all so simple. Just like the Bible. It's very literal until it is demonstrated that it cannot be literal, then it is symbolic. It is scientifically accurate in its literalness until it is not, then it was speaking metaphorically.

    Jesus was not "created" but is part of that Trinity....unless you refer to other scriptures that suggest otherwise, then some part of it is symbolic....depending on which doctrine Perry or others want to believe in.
    It's all so simple. Where is the argument?

  • sparky1
    sparky1

    "Religion: 1. Boundless conceit concealed as utmost modesty. 2. Justification for regulating one's own behavior and coercing others to regulate theirs. 3. An inexhaustible mine of meaning for the mentally lazy." - Thomas S. Szasz M.D.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    No Bible = No God?

    No it's ...

    Know Bible = Know God

    Image result for jesus meme

  • Perry
    Perry

    Cofty,

    Call me when these 4 folks start getting shunned by their families, persecuted and choosing death over recanting. No comparison.

    Jesus' body almost certainly rotted in a mass grave or rubbish tip in Jerusalem.

    The scholars all agree that this "viscious superstition" (as Josephus characterized it) happened right in Jerusalem where the execution and the resurrection took place. Dontcha just know that they searched high and low for the body. That would have put the lie to all these fisherman troubles.. All they ever found was an empty tomb.

    His presence with his followers was in the same sense that millions of others vividly feel the presence of dead loved ones. It is a human response to grief and loss.

    Paul had no sense of grief and/or loss. He was seeking to stamp out this Jesus thing. James, Jesus half/brother though that Jesus was "beside himself"... that is until he met him after he was killed. This possible explanation falls short.

    OTWO,

    Is it possible that there exists a dimension that is beyond our 3D universe? One outside of our space/time experience? Conclusive evidence exists that shows time is relative. Why take such a hard line on this point?

    It's all so simple.

    To someone I'm sure it is....not to us.



  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Perry, the scholars do not agree on this. I am sure you can link many quotes from those with degrees related to accepting theology that agree with you, but there are many scholars who do not believe what you say. You probably don't define 'scholar' the way educated people do. Most scholars are atheists nowadays, so where do you categorize them to say all scholars agree?

    There are many things in the universe we don't understand, but we invented this "God" snd placed him where we don't understand. At first, he wasn't outside of our realm until we got educated enough to know what the 'heavens' are. We continued to have our God-of-the-gaps. Now that we understand enough about time and space, we removed God from it, but keep him in it at the same time. Its a great story with not a shred of reality found. There are wondrous things out there we don't understand, but the God of the Bible is an invention of men and isn't out there.

    You are misleading, being dishonest to try to wedge a slight doubt about what is unknown to Man into a god that I (and others) don't understand when you don't even believe that yourself- you only accept that God is fully the one that your brand of Christianity says he is. So you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

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