WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon 865 Replies latest social current

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    AlanF:

    LOL! Is this the best you can do?

    Can’t you ever admit that you can be wrong? Your explanation begs the question: If you did not mean what you said, then what did you mean? You failed to address any of your absurd comments I have cited. But, what can we expect from a fraud?

    Your rationalization of the word "Manipulation" is extraordinary. Bill Clinton would be proud. Your JW-ish approach is very telling too. I stand by my words used even by your own definition.

    To state that it cannot mean "control," even by the definition you provide, is laughable. You are one desperate person. I accept any other word you want to use in its place. It all means the same, control....

    Once more, taking a closer look at your expressions can be very telling:

    """On the contrary, I meant managed, used, played upon, doctored, handled, maneuvered, beguiled, exploited, finessed, jockeyed, machinated. I meant it in the same way that the above example in the thesaurus does: "the sycophant cleverly manipulated his master". That means that he fooled his master into doing what he wanted; he did not control his master, or he would have been the master. """

    What you left out was the word "Control" that Webster used as an example of what the word means by example ( the Sycophant.......). Why did you leave the word Control out of the example given by Webster? Why did webster not use the many words that you have put forth with the example, but used Control? Even the sub meanings to the words you describe can take you to "Control."

    You seem to be as artful as the Watchtower in running away from what you write.

    Again, its all there, and to not even admit that "control" is a fair use of describing "Manipulated" when it also fits your stated context to a tee, shows you up for what you are. I am not the liar or stupid one here, as you falsey accused me of for using the word control.

    You only started this to cover up the real issue: Your radical viewpoints related to the free flow of information and your general ignorance of Government involvement related to the media (I hold a Degree in Journalism, and have, in the past, worked for a number of media outlets, Scripps Howard and The LA Times, to name two), So I do know something about this issue.

    Your reply is disingenuous and absurd. I feel pity for you......

    As always, let the readers decide!

  • Jayson
    Jayson

    In this thread Simon says:

    We were told by the US and UK that Iraq had terrible Weapons of Mass Destruction and they were a threat to us all.
    We were told that they knew for certain that they had them and where they were. They said they knew where they were!


    He was asked who said this who said EXACTLY this and when was this stated? But he refuses to answer. His later sources prove his comments to be false so he counters with

    This thread shows the folly of trying to reason with some people, I'm not even going to bother trying.Most people willing and able to apply come independant critical thinking to the situation can see the reality.

    Simon says,

    I think it's important that the UN weapons inspectors are there to verify any finds as otherwise there will always be the accusation or suspicion that things have been planted if the US or UK find them (as they have a real vested interest in finding them)

    This is a message that even if WMD are found Simon will dismiss it. Which means this thread is not one of merit. Instead it is to reinforce a prejudice of victimhood.

    Simon says,

    Sure, policing and protecting oil wells is important. Maybe the soldiers who should have protected hospitals were off looking for WoMD (or a few $million is you follow the news). They have not done that much policing.

    Securing oil wells and policing the entire country are two very different things. This exaggeration is like the 170,000 artifacts being looted from the Iraqi museum. Oh I mean the few dozen peicies. But hey some looting did happen and the US did not prevent it. So, Simon was right of course.

    Simon Says,

    Who could possibly know that? I am reminded of a common saying, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".
    And old George W. is in charge of how much power exactly? The simple facts remain:
    We were told that they had WoMD as a certaintly because they knew exactly where they were. Remember all the satellite photo's of the bakery oops "weapons factory"?
    We were told there were hundreds or thousands of tons of chemical weapons, not some little petri-dish somewhere
    It was all fabricated lies as came out from the faked nuclear documents and re-hashed docs they had downloaded and edited off the internet
    I believe they knew for a fact that there were not WoMD there ... they just wanted an 'excuse' for their war. They did everything they could to scupper inspections and hurry things along when Iraq was cooperating (destroying missiles for instance)We were lied to. The people who lied and their associates are now doing very well out of it all. None of the things promised so far for the Iraqi people have happened. They have shit literally filling up in the streets because the destruction of the infrastructure was well organised and efficient but any simple rebuilding seems to be difficult to organise.Several demonstrations against the Americans being there, specifically using a primary school for a base when the town people want to use it to school their kids, have been met with indescriminate shooting into the crowd.The Iraqi people are worse off now than they were before the west attacked Iraq. They used to be the best educated and generally well-off people in the region.
    I'm sorry dubla, but you are just plain wrong on this and you are the one that is trying to regurgitate something after being called on it several times.FACT: Colin Powell showed photo's of installations at the UNFACT: Said installations were labelled as weapons factories and storageFACT: The USA refused to divulge locations to the UN weapons inspectorsFACT: The other 'evidence' that could be corroborated was shown to be fabricatedFACT: Lies have knowingly been told.Some links for you to review so you can refresh your obviously faulty or selective memory

    :http://fs.huntingdon.edu/jlewis/Outlines/MidE/PowellUNspeech5Feb03htm.html

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030205-powell-un-17300pf.htm


    When shown the truth of the matter he says,

    Well, do you really believe for a minute that he would have admitted to the exact opposite? "We're making it hard for the weapons inspectors because we don't want to give up our excuse for war". duh!

    If Powell did not say that he knows exactly where WMD are at this moment then who did? Simon says it is his opinion that they knew or did not know where the WMD are. Simon is not my oracle. So where did he get his information if Powell did not say that to the UN?

    I will say that Powell and the US State Dept is a failure. I love Powell but, in his job he failed. And he continues to lack sucess in the European minds. And I don't think anything he does could make him a winner. Euros are very soar loosers.

    Simon says (repeated)

    This thread shows the folly of trying to reason with some people, I'm not even going to bother trying.Most people willing and able to apply come independant critical thinking to the situation can see the reality.

    And that cuts both ways Simon. I hope someday you take the time to look at my sources on this topic. I have talked to you about them many times in the last month. But you seem to have just ignored my suggestions. It kind of reminds me of trying to suggest another source that JW's fear to look at and REALLY read it is

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Lets lay it all out:

    AlanF’s Five Points of Radicalism:

    1. ""It astounds me that so many people have such strong opinions when most everyone realizes that almost all our information comes from the news media, which is not only biased in any number of directions, but is also manipulated by governments.""

    Your Claims:

    "Almost all" our "information" comes from the news media.

    (What Rubbish)

    2. The Media ‘‘is also" manipulated by the Government.

    (does not really merit a reply)

    3. "Government agencies put out only what they want people to hear. They have plenty of secrets, and secret agendas. News agencies know only what they can observe, and what government agencies tell them. ""

    4."...Many news agencies are themselves government sponsored and therefore reflect only what a government wants people to hear.."

    (PBS? Your statement begs the question, what is "Sponsored" and how much is many?

    "....Reflect Only what a government wants people to hear...".)

    Hold on, your radicalism gets worse:

    5 "The fact is that anyone who discloses information that a government wants kept secret will be either jailed or killed, depending on the government and other circumstances. That effectively stanches the flow of full information.""

    ("The fact is that anyone.." Wow, "fact...anyone" as used by you..... I then proved that "secrets" have been exposed, without the outcome you claim.)

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Lets lay it all out:

    AlanF’s five points of Radicalism:

    1. ""It astounds me that so many people have such strong opinions when most everyone realizes that almost all our information comes from the news media, which is not only biased in any number of directions, but is also manipulated by governments.""

    Your Claims:

    "Almost all" our "information" comes from the news media.

    (What Rubbish)

    2. The Media ‘‘is also" manipulated by the Government.

    (does not really merit a reply)

    3. "Government agencies put out only what they want people to hear. They have plenty of secrets, and secret agendas. News agencies know only what they can observe, and what government agencies tell them. ""

    4."...Many news agencies are themselves government sponsored and therefore reflect only what a government wants people to hear.."

    (PBS? Your statement begs the question, what is "Sponsored" and how much is many?

    "....Reflect Only what a government wants people to hear...".)

    Hold on, your radicalism gets worse:

    5 "The fact is that anyone who discloses information that a government wants kept secret will be either jailed or killed, depending on the government and other circumstances. That effectively stanches the flow of full information.""

    ("The fact is that anyone.." Wow, "fact...anyone" as used by you..... I then proved that "secrets" have been exposed, without the outcome you claim.)

  • Simon
    Simon

    jayson, like dubla you are intent on misrepresenting and misinterpreting everything I say so I am not going to bother trying to debate with you.

    Suffice to say, the USA government has been caught out lying to the world and the people who were very keen to support it are now I suspect getting a bit embarrassed (well, they would do if they had any sense).

    Do I believe anything that the military report? Hell no ... which fool would?

    Oh .. you would huh?!

  • Jayson
    Jayson

    Simon how I am misrepresenting you?

    You pretend to ask questions about the USA but clearly have drawn your own conclusions. The US embarrassed? Actually the majority of Americans consider this war nessesary. And, they are not real concerned with WMD being found. We/I want to fix the problem and not the blame. Saddam made this happen. We all are glad he is out of power. He is to blame or at least the cause. We should at least agree with that first. But we don't.

    Do you believe the military. Sheesh. Or the Government Or me that I am being sincere? Nope you don't. But you also refuse to look up the things that I ask you to which shows that you are afraid too. You even skate over the meat of what I say. Just keep listening to what the TV tells you. That is the real source of truth. And keep yelling at it. It will do your emotional and mental state a world of good guy.

    I think you have a good argument Simon. Your concern is valid but you are wasting it to appease the anti-bushies pride.

  • Sentinel
    Sentinel

    Realist: This is for you. My post was to answer a specific question about something that has already occured. Someone in charge made the decision and thousands of Iraqi people are very happy they got some intervention. At this late date trying to place blame on a government leader, who made a decision and stuck by it, is not relevant. You would have to admit that we don't know all the facts. We chose our leaders and we are loyal citizens. I certainly would not wish to be in their shoes. We in fact, gave Saddam so much prior notice, that he had plenty of time to move the WoMD elsewhere, which I'm certain he did.

    I am not so ignorant or errogant as to believe that the US should go into every country and try to fix things. We certainly have our hands full right here at home. But, when terrorism comes from a certain area and hits us square in the face, and the facts and the trail is hot, action is absolutely necessary. My god, I can only imagine what things would be like if our government were not democratic over here. Total choas in a relative short time. There has to be someone who makes the decisions, and who stands behind them right, or yes, even wrong.

    Whew, that felt good!

    What's done is done. Let's just move forward from here.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Poor dumb old ThiChi. So stupid he doesn't realize how stupid he is. Let's see how stupid he is:

    : Can’t you ever admit that you can be wrong?

    Sure, but since I'm not in this instance, there's nothing to admit. You, on the other hand, are still quite unable to admit that you're unable to comprehend the subtlties of language.

    : Your explanation begs the question: If you did not mean what you said, then what did you mean?

    What a moron! I already explained to you: I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. The fact that you are too stupid to understand that words can have several meanings, and in this case have subtle differences in meaning, is your lookout.

    : You failed to address any of your absurd comments I have cited. But, what can we expect from a fraud?

    Coming from someone who doesn't understand English, and thinks that governments are truthful, what more can be said?

    : Your rationalization of the word "Manipulation" is extraordinary.

    There is no rationalization, you moron. I presented standard dictionary definitions and explained my use of the word "manipulation" in accord with them.

    : Bill Clinton would be proud.

    George Bush would be proud of you. Your levels of intelligence and use of the English language are on a par.

    : Your JW-ish approach is very telling too.

    Ah, I see that you can understand enough of what you read to learn how to deliver serious insults. Unfortunately, your attempt is akin to that of a small child seeing an adult doing something it doesn't like, and shouting, "You have a booger on your face!"

    : I stand by my words used even by your own definition.

    Then you're even more stupid than I thought.

    : To state that it cannot mean "control," even by the definition you provide, is laughable.

    I did not say that it cannot mean control. I said that my usage of it was in accord with the other meanings -- which in your desperate attempt to be "right", you have either ignored or simply not understood. Therefore you're either a liar or abysmally stupid. Which is it?

    : You are one desperate person. I accept any other word you want to use in its place. It all means the same, control....

    Ok, you're just plain stupid.

    : Once more, taking a closer look at your expressions can be very telling:

    : """On the contrary, I meant managed, used, played upon, doctored, handled, maneuvered, beguiled, exploited, finessed, jockeyed, machinated. I meant it in the same way that the above example in the thesaurus does: "the sycophant cleverly manipulated his master". That means that he fooled his master into doing what he wanted; he did not control his master, or he would have been the master. """

    Obviously you do not understand the difference between "control" and the bolded words above. I.e., you're stupid.

    : What you left out was the word "Control" that Webster used as an example of what the word means by example ( the Sycophant.......). Why did you leave the word Control out of the example given by Webster?

    Because, as I have explained several times, words do not have just one meaning. They often have several meanings. In this example, I explained why I used the example. The fact that you cannot understand this explanation yet again proves how unbelievably stupid you are.

    : Why did webster not use the many words that you have put forth with the example, but used Control? Even the sub meanings to the words you describe can take you to "Control."

    Webster's assumes that people reading the many shades of meaning can ascertain which of those meanings to apply in an example.

    : You seem to be as artful as the Watchtower in running away from what you write.

    Not at all. I've explained very clearly the exact meaning of what I wrote. Once again, you are simply too stupid and biased to understand simple English sentences.

    : Again, its all there, and to not even admit that "control" is a fair use of describing "Manipulated" when it also fits your stated context to a tee, shows you up for what you are.

    No, it proves that you do not understand the shades of meaning in various English words.

    : I am not the liar or stupid one here, as you falsey accused me of for using the word control.

    You're an amazingly stupid dullard. Do you know what it means to use various forms of words? Words like "control", "to control", "controlled", "controlling", "will control", "had controlled" and so forth are forms of the same word. Obviously you don't even understand enough English grammar to realize this.

    : You only started this to cover up the real issue: Your radical viewpoints related to the free flow of information and your general ignorance of Government involvement related to the media

    I think that your naivete in thinking that governments generally tell the truth in wartime is charming.

    : (I hold a Degree in Journalism, and have, in the past, worked for a number of media outlets, Scripps Howard and The LA Times, to name two), So I do know something about this issue.

    Obviously they fired you for not knowing much about politics.

    : Your reply is disingenuous and absurd. I feel pity for you......

    Your replies are stupid and indicate that behind them is a naive, arrogant ignoramus. I would feel pity for you but for the arrogance.

    As for the rest of your posts to me, I think I'll leave it to readers to judge who is the moron here.

    AlanF

  • Jayson
    Jayson

    Sentinel,

    I could get behind you on that, "Moveforward". I agree with your post 101%. Even if it was not directed at me.

    Thank you.

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound
    yes, even wrong.

    Whew, that felt good!

    What's done is done. Let's just move forward from here.

    I agree, let's vote the born again coke head out of office.

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