WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon 865 Replies latest social current

  • Realist
    Realist

    sorry for copy pasting so much but this is another must read! Again from the NY times.

    Bomb and Switch

    By MAUREEN DOWD

    WASHINGTON

    Before 9/11, the administration had too little intelligence on Al Qaeda, badly coordinated by clashing officials.

    Before the Iraq invasion, the administration had too much intelligence on Saddam, torqued up by conspiring officials.

    As Secretary of State Colin Powell prepared to make his case for invading Iraq to the U.N. on Feb. 5, a friend of his told me, he had to throw out a couple of hours' worth of sketchy intelligence other Bush officials were trying to stuff into his speech.

    U.S. News & World Report reveals this week that when Mr. Powell was rehearsing the case with two dozen officials, he became so frustrated by the dubious intelligence about Saddam that he tossed several pages in the air and declared: "I'm not reading this. This is $%&*#."

    First America has no intelligence. Then it has $%&*# intelligence.

    So this is progress?

    For the first time in history, America is searching for the reason we went to war after the war is over.

    As The Times's James Risen reports, a bedrock of the administration's weapons case — the National Intelligence Estimate that concluded that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons and was seeking nukes — is itself being reassessed. The document is at the center of a broad prewar-intelligence review, being conducted by the C.I.A. to see whether the weapons evidence was cooked.

    Conservatives are busily offering a bouquet of new justifications for a pre-emptive attack on Iraq that was sold as self-defense against Saddam's poised and thrumming weapons of mass destruction.

    Pressed by reporters about whether Tony Blair and President Bush were guilty of hyperbole — Mr. Blair's foreign secretary claimed Saddam could deploy chemical and biological weapons in 45 minutes — Senator John McCain replied, "The American people support what the president did, whether we find those weapons or not, and they did so the day they saw 9- and 10-year-old boys coming out of a prison in Baghdad."

    Senator Pete Domenici noted that experts thought that Saddam's overthrow might pave the way for the Middle East road map to work. "For those kind of experts to say that has changed the dynamics in the Middle East, sufficient that we might get peace, seems to me to outweigh all the questions about did we have every bit of evidence that we say we had or not," he said.

    In a Vanity Fair interview, Paul Wolfowitz said another "almost unnoticed but huge" reason for war was to promote Middle East peace by allowing the U.S. to take its troops out of Saudi Arabia — Osama's bête noir. But it was after the U.S. announced it would pull its troops from Saudi Arabia that a resurgent Qaeda struck a Western compound, killing eight Americans.

    And it was after the U.S. tried to intimidate other foes by stomping on Saddam that Iran and North Korea ratcheted up their nukes. Iran and North Korea actually do have scary nuclear programs, but if we express our alarm to the world now, will we be accused of crying Wolfowitz?

    A new Pew survey of 21 nations shows a deepening skepticism toward the U.S. "The war had widened the rift between Americans and Western Europeans, further inflamed the Muslim world, softened support for the war on terrorism, and significantly weakened global public support for the pillars of the post-World War II era — the U.N. and the North Atlantic alliance," said Pew's director, Andrew Kohut.

    Brits may be more upset with Mr. Blair than Americans are with Mr. Bush because they have the quaint idea that even if you think war was a good idea, you should level with the public about your objectives.

    The Bush crowd practiced bait and switch, leaving many Americans with the impression that Saddam was involved in 9/11.

    When James Woolsey, the former C.I.A. director and current Pentagon adviser, appeared on "Nightline" five days after 9/11 and suggested that America had to strike Iraq for sponsoring terrorism, Ted Koppel rebutted: "Nobody right now is suggesting that Iraq had anything to do with this. In fact, quite the contrary."

    Mr. Woolsey replied: "I don't think it matters. I don't think it matters." The Republicans will have to follow the maxim of Robert Moses, the autocratic New York builder who never let public opinion get in the way of his bulldozing: "If the ends don't justify the means, what does?"

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    jelly; you seem to be happy to ignore that it seems likely there was a campaign of willful misinformation to sway public opinion. There is certainly no evidence for stocks of WoMD we were assured existed.

    Now, you're welcome to allow a government to lie to you. You're welcome to ignore the negative impact on international relations this will have if it becomes firmly established. You're welcome to ignore the dangerous precident set by the USA, that if followed by India, for example, could result in a nuclear war.

    Saddam was a bad man and it is good he has gone. But two wrongs do not make a right.

    If the people in power are willing to lie and cheat to support their actions, you had better hope that they won't use the same lack of principles to support actions against their own people.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    the only thing one can try is to vote for nadar or another alternative party. but its HIGHLY unlikely the ruling class will ever let a truly honest man gain control

    Realist

    Voting doesn't work in this country. The last election proved that beyond all doubt. This is an illegal president who engaged in an illegal war. And the Amercian people can do nothing about it. Well, the Americans who care can't do anything about it. What surprises me, and I don't know why, is how many Americans that do not care what is going on in this country.

    Robyn

  • Realist
    Realist

    Hello Robdar,

    kiss to you too!

    you are right of course...voting won't help much. the problem is this sytem was set up in a way (or was distorted in a way) that nobody can do something about it anymore. influencial circles (banks, weapons, energy, etc.) own the political parties and they own the media. they even own the federal reserve bank!

    in most other countries it would be possible to vote green (or any other minor) party members at least into congress / parliament where they are part of the decision making process. but not in the US.

    and the reason why most people in the US don't care about it is that the media shows a distorted picture of reality. how many poor people do you see on TV? do you hear the real reasons for the extremely high crime rate? do you hear a lot about pollution? the rather poor education? military spendings? medical care for the poor etc. ...one hears about these issues VERY RARELY at best.

    the media reports only what people want to hear and people don't want to hear negative things....thats the sad truth.

  • dubla
    dubla

    i just got back from vacation today (gone to florida for a week of 90 degree weather! ), and i thought id revisit this thread to see whats been going on. i was somewhat dissapointed with all the "laughing out loud" about a lack of replies from the "prowar crowd". number one, is any of this a laughing matter? i mean, lets say no wmd are found, and the antiwar crowd "wins" this particular argument......is celebration in order? would it then be time to laugh at the other side?

    second of all, ive been "quiet" because ive been gone, but upon returning, i really havent read anything worth replying to. no one has brought up any new points, there are only reguritated criticisms of the fact that wmd havent been found up to this point. ive made so many points that no one has even tried to refute, its not even funny..........now all of a sudden im required to respond to every little rehashed point? um, okay. the one poster thats actually carried on a decent discussion with me on the matter has been realist, and its been appreciated. if anyone has any new points to discuss, id be happy to respond.....until then im sticking to my repeated (ad nauseum) stance that the weapons search is far from over, and if and when it is over with no wmd found, i will be taking a hard look at my position on the wmd issue. as one poster pointed out, it really didnt make a whole lot of sense for saddam to play games and keep sanctions on his nation for as long as he did if he didnt have any wmds. to me, the jury is still out......for some, the door has already been closed in their mind......to each his own.

    speaking of you realist......after reading your latest posts i now realize why you havent thought saddam was a threat to anyone, even if he had wmd......you didnt even know he gassed the kurds! also, until i showed you facts, you didnt know saddam had unaccounted for mustard agents......it is becoming more and more clear to me that you need to do some serious research into the past facts of this issue before you continue to argue it. put "kurds, saddam, gassed" into a search engine and see what you find.......to most of us it has always been common knowledge that he did indeed use wmd on his own people....obviously this was a fact that somehow escaped you. let me know what you come up with.

    aa

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Realist:

    I disagree. Parties like the Libertarians are gaining seats on the Municipal, County and State levels every year. Ross Perot National Campaign was a good example of what the people can do. The fact is, until there is a major concern for most, apathy will be the order of the day......

  • gitasatsangha
    gitasatsangha

    ThiChi and I agree on yet another thing. Libertarian party has the potential to wreck the two party system (and I hope it does). When I vote third party, I don't feel like I am wasting my vote. The Greens in America, on the other hand, rely too much on Nadar. He's getting old, and he is not well liked by many people. If you like travelling faster then 55mph, you don't REALLY like Ralph "Unsafe At Any Speed" Nadar.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Regarding WMDs, the Blame US first crowd asserted "If they don’t find WMD, they will make sure they are found." However, the US has been honest about what has been discovered (like the mobile labs that Powell described has been found)...this too is very telling.

  • Realist
    Realist

    hello Dubla,

    hope you had a great vacation!

    speaking of you realist......after reading your latest posts i now realize why you havent thought saddam was a threat to anyone, even if he had wmd......you didnt even know he gassed the kurds! also, until i showed you facts, you didnt know saddam had unaccounted for mustard agents......it is becoming more and more clear to me that you need to do some serious research into the past facts of this issue before you continue to argue it. put "kurds, saddam, gassed" into a search engine and see what you find.......to most of us it has always been common knowledge that he did indeed use wmd on his own people....obviously this was a fact that somehow escaped you. let me know what you come up with.

    hmmmmmmmmm the only plausible explanation for your statement i can come up with is that you MISREAD my post!

    i did NOT question the use of WMD but the use of bioweapons!

    ive made so many points that no one has even tried to refute, its not even funny

    can you list them?

    i mean, lets say no wmd are found, and the antiwar crowd "wins" this particular argument......is celebration in order?

    thats not a matter of celebration but about who was/is closer to reality!

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    gitasatsangha:

    I am a Libertarian at Heart........Drug war is a failure and has only hastened the taking of our rights away (like asset forfeiture)........Income Tax must go........

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