@ DJW - "Energy-matter never came into existence, but rather has always existed."
Looks like atheists and believers do agree on something!! Just different faiths!
The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?
by smiddy3 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Disillusioned JW
Yes BoogerMan, atheists (at least some) and theists (at least most Christian theists) do agree that something (someone in the case of theists) has always existed and that it (someone in the case of theists) is eternal. But I don't consider my view to be a faith. For me it is simply the result of simple deductive reasoning upon two well established facts of science. Note the following.
Premise number 1: Energy-matter exists.
Premise number 2: The well established Law of Conservation of Energy-Matter says that Energy-Matter can neither be created nor destroyed (though it can be transformed).
Conclusion: Since energy-matter exists and since it can not be created, energy-matter therefore must have always existed and has never come into existence.
However, it should be noted that some astrophysicists have said the net energy of the entire universe is ZERO (when considering gravitational potential energy as negative energy) and that thus the entire universe could have come from NOTHING.
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Disillusioned JW
I get a very strong impression that Sea Breeze is sincere in what he posts on this site and I appreciate his sincerity, but I disagree with many of his religious teachings. It disappoints me that he became a young Earth creationist and a fundamentalist and an apologist of such, but I appreciate that he is happy (and recovered from the immense emotional trauma which the WT Society's influence induced upon him), has good intentions, and apparently is a good person.
Sea Breeze said the following. 'Furthermore, they explain the historical fact how tens of thousands of orthodox Jews in Jerusalem the seat of Jewish faith, left that system and put faith and trust in Jesus, a condemned criminal. They put their trust in the absolutely lowest of those cursed. "cursed is every man who hangeth upon a tree".'
Though the NT (such as in Acts) claims that tens of thousands of Jews of the 1st century CE became believers in Jesus as the Messiah, I don't know that there were really that many. It seems to me that the vast majority of the converts in the first century CE (at least after 70 CE) to belief in Jesus as the Messiah were gentiles. Furthermore, only a tiny percentage of the first century CE Christians had ever seen Jesus.
A few followers of Jesus saw a vision of Jesus as a resurrected being and they thought that meant they actually saw Jesus, but the visions can easily be explained as a hallucinations. No book of the NT says that any human saw Jesus walk out of the tomb of Jesus. [But the apocryphal book of the Gospel of Peter says that Jesus, as a giant, walked out of the tomb and that the cross followed him out of the tomb and that the cross spoke! See verses 35-43 at https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelpeter-brown.html .] Other people accepted the reports of the resurrection of Jesus and put faith in them, but many people during that century were highly superstitious.
Sea Breeze also said the following. 'Why trust a "cursed man" unless he was known to never lie and walked out of a tomb. Nothing makes any sense unless Jesus really was raised from the dead.
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:” 'It does seem very possible that there was a historical Jesus who was hung on wood (such as on a cross) by the Romans. If Jesus was historical, then it does seem that the Roman government thought that Jesus claimed to be a king and that such is the reason why Jesus was executed. All four NT gospels say that sign above Jesus, on the wooden execution device, said that Jesus was the king of the Jews (it does not say for claiming to be the messiah or for claiming to be God). Bart Ehrman says that indicates that Jesus was sentenced by the Romans for claiming to be the king of the Jews. Ehrman says that the Romans placed a sign above crucified people (deemed criminals by Rome) which said what the charge was against the crucified person.
It is also true that the Bible teaches "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree". But the conversion of Jews to Christianity can be explained by them having hopes for a messiah to rule and thinking the time was near for a messianic kingdom, and that Jesus (if he existed) was a good and sincere person who taught people about the kingdom of God, and that some Jews had sincerely claimed to see Jesus alive after Jesus had died.
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waton
the net energy of the entire universe is ZERO (when considering gravitational potential energy as negative energy) and that thus the entire universe could have come from NOTHING.
DJW:
If you have positive Energy and negative Energy on the balance, evening out, Can you see the 2 energies instead of zero? That means most of the energy of the cosmos is still out there, in time, waiting for us to move into. ( we are obviously moving through time into the future)
Where does it say that all energy that existed for an eternity is locked up in our local universe?
The same equation applies for matter and anti matter. 2 in potential balance = 2. period, not one. so,
do not forget the deists. Power of reason.
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Disillusioned JW
Yes waton I can perceive the two energies, but I can also think of them together as being zero in some sense. However, it hard for me to think of them together as being zero, since they are separated into separate energies. Even the alleged singularity 9in the big bang theory) is thought of as having much chaotic dynamic energy and such makes it hard for me to think of it as being nothing. Likewise an atom of neutral electrical charge has a net electrical charge of zero, but it contains both negative charge(s) and positive charge(s).
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waton
Disillusioned JW,
There is now detected the existence of "dark energy" appearing in the expanding universe, so,
the time/energy/ future we expand into, must have more resident energy, that was not funnelled into the Big Beginning point of time. or to use Dirac'a language, not all the Dirac "sea" emptied through the Dirac "hole"
terrible to think that the future has no energy. They are both eternal after all.
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Anony Mous
I like how SeaBreeze’s logic works: millions of people believed in something, therefore it must be true. The JWs are 7-14M people that believe in the octopope, 14M Mormons think their underwear has magical properties, that’s more people than there were living in the Levant in the first century.
As far as the energy in the Universe: it has been calculated to be 0, therefore the Universe doesn’t exist or at least mathematically balances out, without a god. If you want to make the Universe into a god of the gaps of sorts, fine, but you can’t claim it is benevolent or cares, because that is contradictory.
As far as the claims of evolution vs design earlier: design would imply proper engineering. Evolution is where you get to a point that something is good enough, it’s poorly constructed but the majority of species don’t die due to the design flaws, only some, or evolution eventually comes up with a solution, reproduce more/faster. Millions of fish are ‘born’ every second, yet the majority of them die, survival of the species depends on continuous reproduction. Why would a god design something that will die before it even realizes it’s purpose.