References to YHWH in ancient documents (page 4)

Doug Mason

Smiddy,

I have several books by Bible scholars that discuss Yahweh and some include that word in the book's title.

If God needs a name, does that mean he/she/it needs to be identified from the other gods? Otherwise, what's the point?

Doug

Ruby456

smiddy their reasoning may be that all those instances (if they are not Jewish) associate and hide the tetragrammaton within the trinity

Doug Mason

Ruby,

Investigate the history as it is most fascinating.

"Moses" is an Egyptian name. His father-in-law was a priest and he made offerings while Moses and Aaron watched on. I understand that Moses learned about Yahweh from his father in law. As the Bible says, prior to that, god was known as EL (shaddai).

Areas that I am keen to investigate to check on:

(1) Who were the Hebrews?

(2) Where did the Israelites come from and what was their political alliance (phoenician?)

(3) What language did they speak?

(4) Which Gods did they have?

(5) Where did the Judahites come from and what was their political alliance?

(6) Did they speak a different language to the Israelites?

(7) Which gods they have?

(8) How did David manage to unite the two nations?

Always remember that the Judaism we are familiar with did not emerge until their experiences with the Neo-Babylonian Captivity and Exile. That is when the monotheists took control (Isaiah 40 ff)

Doug

Doug Mason

Ruby,

When talking about the ancient Hebrews and Israelites, do not muddy the water by bringing in anything that came afterwards. Keep the discussion focused on the times.

The Israelites were monolatrists. They were not monotheists.

Doug

Ruby456

doug at what point would you place monotheistic influences if not during ancient times?

Pistoff

Watchtower is invested in maintaining that 'Jehovah' is the name of god; it is their brand, their unique identifier.

The reasons why the Israelites stopped using their name for god is an intriguing mystery to me, but likely it is just a function of evolving belief and superstition.

The Watchtower has fetishized the use of Jehovah, even as they have acknowledged that it was never pronounced that way by any ancient Israelite (their brand name, right? They are not going to let the use of Yahweh get going among the friends).

All of the above research tells us about the nature of belief and how ideas become enshrined as doctrine and religious practice.

Pistoff

From Doug Mason

If God needs a name, does that mean he/she/it needs to be identified from the other gods? Otherwise, what's the point?

This has been my belief for a long time, that the name no longer had cache when monotheism was on the rise.

The Israelites were not monotheistic, that is an idea that is retrojected onto their history by later bible writers, plenty of evidence for them worshipping multiple gods.

The idea that their god had a name comes into play with the cult of Yahweh, that there was only one god, not multiple gods or one god more powerful over all other gods.

The push to not pronounce or utter the name, I have not been able to find out when it happened or why, probably not knowable, but it follows the way religions develop doctrine over centuries: ideas change, and unlike science where ideas change with new evidence, change in religious thought is influenced by other factors, and is not consistent.

Phizzy

" Watchtower is invested in maintaining that 'Jehovah' is the name of god; it is their brand, their unique identifier."

True, but they do like to have things both ways, as the name "Jehovah" sounds strange to many they have hidden it within the Brand Logo, and try not to shove it in the public's face.

As Doug has ably shown, their claims as to the validity of its use are very shaky/non-existent.

Phizzy

As to Ruby's question " doug at what point would you place monotheistic influences if not during ancient times?"

It is my opinion that the move toward monotheism did not get real traction until the exile in Babylon, it is difficult to not make the mistake of seeing monotheism evident in the "earlier" part of the Hebrew bible, but we have to realize that the versions we have now of these writings were edited and redacted after the Exile, hiding the earlier beliefs in other gods.

Ruby456

I agree phizzy - and would suggest even as early as the seventh century. One of the reasons for the rise of monotheism was the need for translatability across cultures because trade docs were underwritten by attaching the name of a particular god.

However the Bible itself places the rise of monotheism to a time that kind of agrees with the period of Akenaten in Egypt. So there are parallels. I also know that in the Greek world there were such moves during the archaic period. However, the idea that there was one unifying underlying reality could have been older.

edit: in bringing the discussion back to Doug Masons topic - I agree that Yahweh/Jehovah eventually emerged as the one supreme God while other lesser gods continued to exist.

References to YHWH in ancient documents

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