Waton » The idea was, that if you lived by wt rules to a t, you cemented your right to be in heaven.
If I'm not mistaken, if you're anointed, you're born that way. It's not something you can aspire to.
Crossing the Elders
by Cold Steel 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Cold Steel
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waton
If I'm not mistaken, if you're anointed, you're born that way. CS:
Some religions might teach that, Catholics have to be baptized (like Jesus) to receive the anointing, Cornelius even was spirit anointed before baptism, but one way or another, you have to be faithful to a "t" , failure will make you lose it all. at least if you cross the elders, (brazen conduct in wt parlance!) or?
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Londo111
Watchtower has not discussed every verse in the Bible, but that really doesn’t matter in the end. They’ve a creed that must be adhered to, even though they would deny they have a creed. Of course, Watchtower denies interpreting the Bible at all. That is what “Christendom” does.
But what happens if you don’t believe an interpretation? That could well be apostasy. And if you speak it aloud? That could easily land a person in a judicial committee. Thus a person would not be “waylaid” by one elder, but pulled into the backroom with three elders. The results could be your family, friends, acquaintances, you entire community and social network shunning you, not saying so much as hello if they see you on the street.
“Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
Even if it is not theological in nature, say a person pointed out cases where the Governing Body change their teachings from their own publications, or show where they became a NGO of the UN. That would be called “causing divisions”. Same result.
I suppose if you said that the “new light” was what you’d already figured beforehand, you would be okay. As long as it doesn’t contradict “present truth”. However, if you mentioned the “new light” BEFORE the Governing Body revealed it, then you would be accused of “running ahead”. And if a person got disfellowshipped, then the Governing Body changed the teaching then, you would not get an apology, and likely a person would still have to work going through the hoops of reinstatement.
Can they have it both ways?
Yes, about this and many things. They are a cult. They have absolute authority. They can have their cake and eat it too.
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stan livedeath
..........its.........
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OnTheWayOut
There are 53 distinct types of nuts on the planet. I don't think you will manage to sub-categorize elders into 53 distinct types, but there are all kinds of elders.
Typically, elders are selected by their ability to promote and demonstrate full faith in the corporation of Watchtower. Accepting and using their doctrine on the platform and being willing to do any menial task they ask of you helps.
But it isn't that simple. Some are made elders because their family donates money. Some because they pioneered long enough to impress the other elders, or because they married into the right influential family. While I was made elder for the first reason I list, demonstrating and promoting the corporation, I was made an elder kind of fast because I studied with the elder who wanted to be a huge fish in a small pond, and nothing was more impressive than all his male students making elder quickly.
Being raised a JW, you get there faster if your family already has "men in position" and especially if they hid any of your youthful indiscretions to protect their own positions. If you were converted as an adult, you won't have your youthful indiscretions held against you. So many different paths to elder. Hell, someone who buys a minivan for recruiting every Saturday and gives the C.O. a green handshake every 6 months could get there fast. -
Chook
The whole elder arrangement is for delivering the punishment to those weak bastards who were expected to only marry Jws which left a 3 to 1 ratio men to women. These poor sisters, some never found love because of bullshit bible reading. All hierarchical jw priests will lend a hearing ear to your dirty indiscretions, it's just a man dominating man to injury.
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Cold Steel
So if you're a gung ho convert, or you seek to sit at the feet of the elders in your congregation and show them you'll continue to be a toadie after your appointment, you've got greater chance of being made an elder.
For those of you who were elders, if you traveled to a different Kingdom Hall, did you visit as just a regular old member, or did you find a way of letting them know you were an elder in your conversations with them?
That makes me wonder what would happen if someone visited a KH and told people he was an elder. Had that ever happened? (It happened in my church. There was a guy in California who set himself as an expert on scripture. He would visit the various churches, give firesides on the Dead Sea Scrolls. He would read the writings of actual scholars, make outrageous claims and drop their names as though he rubbed elbows with them. He would let people record his talks and firesides and cassettes were going all over the state. He would stay with members, be taken out for expensive dinners, was treated like one of our premier scholars and went from one place to another. He had slides of Dead Sea Scroll strips and was a total fraud! Of course none of the real scholars he cited had ever heard of him. So people can be strange, to say the least.)
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waton
just sat through the weekly video on pride. and it is about a fictional brother that is alienating himself from the congregation by his critical attitude ( Beam in his eye, compared to the splinter in his targets) [targets supposedly the elders].
well, typical wt strohman argument. how about the arrogance of the elders, compounded by their " we are united and never do wrong" attitude?
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Londo111
I wasn’t an elder, but my father and both grandfathers were.
This is how the arrangement works. Every congregation has an approved list of who has the “privilege” of giving public talks, and this list is regulated by the body of elders. The public speaker can either be an elder or a ministerial servant.
Each congregation has a “talk coordinator”. Talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on Sunday. Typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit. So it would not be possible for a stranger to show up on Sunday and give a talk.
Even the content of the public talk does not originate with the one giving it. The content comes from Headquarters in New York. Basically, Watchtower gives dozens of outlines, and a speaker must select or be given one of those. While there is some room for variation, basically the speaker must deliver the points of the outline, albeit in their own words. Even circuit overseers are given outlines…although they have more freedom for variation.
The same holds true for circuit assemblies and district (or now regional) conventions. In fact, at a convention the speaker is given a manuscript and they must deliver it word for word.
There would never be any “fireside”. At least, not at the Kingdom Hall. There would only be the scheduled meetings Watchtower has directed. Extra meetings are a no no. There is a rare exception, but the visitor would have to be a missionary or someone from Bethel…it would not be a stranger. Perhaps use of the kingdom hall to watch some of the Society’s videos would be okay too.
Some sort of meeting outside the Kingdom Hall would be highly unlikely. I believe if a stranger showed up claiming expertise in something, inviting JWs to hear him speak, they would be very very suspicious, as well wary that this is an apostate. Independent meetings and study groups are a no no—even if pro JW all the way.
As the September 2007 Kingdom Ministry says:
“Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate? No, it does not …“the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight."
Therefore, because of such a control structure from Watchtower headquarters, such a scenario you mentioned would be highly unlikely.
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flipper
COLD STEEL- Great thread topic- thanks for posting it. Like LONDO stated - EVERY JW is expected to follow the GB's orders and commands because if they don't - they will be deemed as " spiritually weak " or " rebellious " . There is no in-between view of these people from the WT leaders.
Elders are expected to follow the GB's orders to the letter of the law- and if they don't the every 6 month visit of the Circuit Overseers will put them in line to make sure they are observing " the letter of the law " . The elders are essentially an extended arm of control of the GB put into congregations to control and make rank & file JW's " behave " . If rank & file JW's don't " behave " they either get " disciplined " & " counseled " or kicked out of the congregation eventually. Usually sooner rather than later.
When I was in the JW cult the thing that REALLY bothered me was that there was NO check system stopping these men ( elders ) from giving their own opinions as counsel. They could tell a fellow JW anything as " counsel " - and JW's would lap it up as coming from " mother " - or the GB - and not question the validity of the " counsel " at all. Lots of people's lives get wrecked and destroyed that way. They tried messing my life up by giving me their personal opinions as " counsel " . I saw right through it and called them on their shit- and for that I was declared a " rebellious " or in Scientology lingo - a " suppressive person " . A person considered " dangerous " within the organization because I might influence others to " rebel " .
It's all about power & control to the GB and appointed elders. Making sure fellow JW's " obey " the rules- or else off with your spiritual head ! Even when the Circuit Overseers would visit- if these elders were long time elders in positions- even Circuit Overseers would not correct longtime elders for giving " personal opinions " to JW's as counsel- because many Circuit Overseers did the same damn thing !
So check systems failed to prevent abuse of power - whatever real " check systems " were in place which in reality, honestly - there weren't any in place to use on elders abusing their power. I was raised in the cult from birth till age 44 and had an elder dad who was the big shot elder in one city for over 40 years . I saw people, even other elders walk in dread or fear of him. It was ridiculous. He not only was a " legend in his own mind " - but other elders saw him as this " legend " as well. Which helped fuel his narcissistic view of himself. What's the old saying ? Power corrupts ; absolute power corrupts absolutely