If by allies you mean democratic countries, then..... yes I'm ok with that.
White man’s burden aka protect democracy aka petrodollar.
"Somebody" needs to do "Something!"
by Terry 27 Replies latest jw friends
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Fisherman
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LoveUniHateExams
Let’s look at things from the Russian perspective - yeah, ok, let's do that. But go back further in time to the beginning of the 21st century onwards.
Putin has seen NATO expand further and further into Eastern Europe. He has seen the US put some of its nuclear weapons in non-nuclear NATO member states.
Putin doesn't like this, and over the years has repeatedly tried to raise these issues with the West. However, the West hasn't listened or taken his views seriously.
Why is Putin worried? Well just imagine how Western Europe would feel if Putin gave nuclear weapons to Belarus.
We know how worried JFK was when the USSR put missiles in Cuba.
It's a bit 'double standards' to shit yourself over the Cuban missile crisis then years later dismiss similar concerns from Russia over NATO bases creeping closer and closer to Russia ... don't you think?
BTW, I'm not justifying the Ukraine war. Invading the Ukraine and then shelling the shit out of it is obviously wrong. I'm just doing what you said do - looking at this from a Russian perspective.
Given the above, if you were in Putin’s position, would you start nuclear war now, and almost certainly be incinerated? - no, I wouldn't. But it would be very foolish for Western politicians not to take Putin's threat seriously, or to back him into a corner so much that the nuclear option becomes the only way out for him. Putin is a cold-blooded killer with zero regard for human life. I'm sure he's thought how closely packed Western Europe is (nuking it would be like shooting fish in a barrel). I'm sure he's thought about striking first and wiping out Washington DC, NYC and LA. Putin would have no qualms sacrificing millions and millions of innocent Russians who might get nuked from a retaliatory strike from America. Of course, if Putin ever pressed the big red button, he'd likely go all-in and destroy US cities, and wipe the UK and France off the surface of the planet.
I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that Putin is a Western politician - he's not. Western politicians are leaders, but they have to pose as social workers in order to get elected. Putin doesn't bother with any of that crap - he's one bad bastard.
I also think some people - me included - arrogantly assume that everyone wants to be Westernised. And it's clearly not the case with Putin.
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LoveUniHateExams
There is no equivalence between Ukraine and Iraq in the sense that what the west did to Iraq was much much worse, and Iraq posed no threat to us. That’s not to “defend” Russia, it’s to point out rank hypocrisy - yes, you're quite right.
The Iraq war (2003) was totally unnecessary, disastrous, and illegal. Saddam Hussein was no threat to the West. Hell, he wasn't even a threat to Kuwait in the early 2000s.
Putin's not stupid - he can probably see this hypocrisy, too.
How the hell can people like Biden and Harris condemn Putin's invasion of Ukraine whilst brushing Iraq under the carpet - it's just insane.
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Terry
I have no special insight into Kuwait but this article raised a few "sucker punch" suspicions worth listening to.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/01/05/did-the-us-really-give-saddam-fake-ok-to-invade-kuwait/ -
LV101
Tulsi Gabbard on Tok (TikTok) has made the most sense lately. She's one of the brightest out there. US has been pushing towards war w/Russia (unbelievable) -- the old war mongers at it again guaranteeing trillions of $$ for the 'Power Elite' (including military industrial security complex and mainstream media).
She refers to Biden's pushing the matter (starting a hot war/nuclear) destroying the American people/world so that Ukraine's democracy can be saved (it's not a democracy for an opener) means he's either insane, a sociopath or a saddest. Same hype coming from Dems/Pubs.
Previous US presidents have all launched attacks on at least 9 countries. Trump the only one with record of zero attacks.
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Disillusioned JW
I don't think Biden in trying to cause the USA to start a hot war with Russia. I think the Biden administration and a number of European nations are trying (by means of a cold war) to avoid making the mistake they made in the 1930s in dealing with Hitler and Nazi Germany. Back in the 1930s they initially made no serious effort to prevent Hitler from invading/taking countries (especially those containing many German people). To their surprise they saw Germany invade/take nation after nation. Only after Germany did such did they go war with Germany, but by then it was very very hard to defeat Hitler. If they had strongly resisted him much earlier they would have stopped him long before he invaded/took more countries - including long before he bombed Britain and before he overran France. That is one thing which the study of world history teaches. To me, in regards to conquest of nations, the actions of Putin and his Russia are like the actions of Hitler and his Germany, though on a much smaller scale.
Should the USA and NATO and western Europe really wait to take major action until Putin's Russia has reconquered the former states/nations of the USSR and regained control of much of the rest of eastern Europe? I say no! Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it! Putin's ultimate goal is to bring back the entire USSR and its whole sphere of influence - not just a relatively small portion of what was lost from it.
LoveUniHateExams, I agree with you that the USA should never had gone to war with Iraq after the 9/11 attack. I also never believed that that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction - I firmly believed what the UN inspectors had said about Iraq not having such weapons. After the USA went to war against Iraq I twice went to downtown Portland, Oregon (when George W. Bush was president of the USA) and joined in a protest march against the war (a march which called for the end to the war)!
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jhine
Terry , you say that conscience comes before duty ( orders)
It should however we only apply that to other countries. If American soldiers had defied orders say in Korea or Vietnam they would be labelled traitors and shot . If British soldiers had defied orders in the Falklands same thing .
Conscience only comes into play when it's other folks troops that we are talking about.
Jan
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Terry
JHine: Conscience only comes into play when it's other folks troops that we are talking about.
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When I was 20 years old my "conscience" was hijacked by Watchtower leaders working through local congregation leaders who took me aside in the Kingdom Hall library for a confidential conference concerning the proper strategy for dealing with Military conscription and Conscientious Objector deferral.
1. I could not / should not ever tell anyone in authority that I had been "advised" by Watchtower to comply or refuse to comply with the Universal Military Training and Service requirements as a citizen of the U.S.
2. I was to insist I was an individual whose personal conscience was directing my actions
The Irony of this is obvious.
Lying is righteous if you protect Watchtower leaders. Theocratic "strategy" is parroting what you are told and omitting the source of your instruction.
The worst part of this is as follows.
Jehovah's Witness boys were NOT required by law to serve in the Military because of a generous provision of ALTERNATE SERVICE available.
Romans 13: 1,2 set the Bible standard for compliance with Superior Authorities.
The insidiously hidden secret instructions defied Romans 13 by a SECONDARY REFUSAL of that Alternate Service as well.
I was sentenced in District Court to an Indeterminate sentence (up to 6 years) and I went to prison from 1967 to 1969 when the LAW only required that I serve the same amount of time working in a hospital on behalf of the community.
Double Refusal when compliance with the law only required singular refusal was NOT MY CONSCIENCE but the Watchtower's undue influence and coercion by hijack.
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After parole, I gave a Public Talk on a Sunday before the Watchtower Study.
The title was something like SHOULD YOUR CONSCIENCE BE YOUR GUIDE?
The outline for the talk reasoned this way:
1. Only a Bible-trained conscience is reliable
2. Only the FDS/GB is able to interpret what the Bible really teaches
3. Conscience = WT doctrine.
The United States leaders operate under a false idea of conscience and morality about themselves and Good and Evil concepts are invoked to control a narrative (backed up by Media) that we are Leaders of the Free World duty-bound to rush to the aid of any people with a democratic impulse
to self-govern.
That is surface propaganda.
In reality, we have subverted democratic elections all over the world and installed our own puppet leaders while hypocritically spouting Conscience nonsense (not unlike the Watchtower).
Sending our children to die for disguised political and economic interests is an open secret.
Who doesn't do that?
25% of the American Public answered poll questions saying they favor a NO FLY ZONE over Ukraine. Shooting down Russian jets, in other words.
Is this anything but madness leading to nuclear confrontation?
News outlets are pretty much bought off by $$ from Corporate interests. Advertising money has dried up and only Sugar Daddy money keeps Media alive.
So?
Our futures are in the hands of Oligarchs. What is profitable to THEM is what dictates policies.
Putin was installed by Oligarchs. U.S. sanctions have driven Putin into monetary alignment with China subverting the American petro dollar.
Oil and Gas prices are up up and away as Russian resources will now be sold to China. Europe will pay, pay, pay through the nose for energy.
Gas Prices everyplace may exceed our wildest imaginings.
Remember this: when we vote we always vote for the Lesser of Two Evils and logically speaking the result is incompetent evil runs the show.
Leaders in Canada, the U.S., and the U.K. are truly clowns. Russia and China are run by
tyrant-o-saurs with an iron grip on vast populations.
I don't know about you, but I'm not at all worried. Why not? World happenings are all out of my hands.
Worry is a dividend paid to disaster before it ever occurs.
I have simplified my life down to bare essentials. That's about all I can do.