So when was Jesus begotten. Was he truly and wholly fully human. Did he exist in two states, part human part god. Was he part of the let us create opening statement in Genesis. Is the anti-Christ those who deny he came in the flesh, fully human.
Did Jesus have a pre-existence or was he fully human, begotten at his human birth.
by gavindlt 14 Replies latest watchtower bible
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nicolaou
Do you really need to be told how babies are made? Mary had sex with someone and 9 months later Jesus was born. He was a man like any other.
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slimboyfat
nicolaou, Christians know how babies are made, but they believe that Jesus was different because Mary became pregnant because of the power of holy spirit rather than the usual way.
To answer the question, the NT teaches that Jesus was a human and is the mediator between the “one God” and humans. Jesus was with God in heaven before he came to earth.
1 Tim 2.5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus
John 17.5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began
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nicolaou
C'mon Slim', I'm perfectly aware of Christian belief as you know full well. I responded to an opening post (which is becoming a bit more common around here) where the supernatural is taken as a viable and sensible proposition, indeed reality has not even been offered as an option in this topic.
Well if reason and rationality can be ignored so blithely I can equally discount the religious nonsense on offer and state the simple facts as they are.
Happy New Year
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Vanderhoven7
The Bible answers your question in The prologue to John's gospel as follows.
1¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2He was in the beginning with God.3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. -
slimboyfat
nicolaou I know that you know what Christians believe. But if you can pretend the OP doesn’t understand how babies form then I can pretend you don’t understand Christian beliefs, no? Seems like a rhetorical equivalent to me.
I think supernatural is hard to define because whatever God is could be described as natural or supernatural it just depends on your perspective. It seems to function as a descriptor of “things we don’t understand how they work”. Once they are explained they become natural. Are there things about reality we don’t yet understand, or possibly never can understand? Definitely. So I do believe in “supernatural” in that sense.
Happy new year to you too 🥳
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NotFormer
Slim, the Christadelphians deny the pre-existence of Jesus, prior to his conception. The ones I've talked to have said that, yes, the Word was in the beginning, but Jesus isn't the Word. I don't know if that view is held across all Christadelphian ecclesias; you might ask the ones you know, next time your paths cross. I'd be interested to know.
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slimboyfat
Christadelphians don’t believe Jesus had a prehuman life, that’s correct, but they do believe Jesus is the Word of John 1 because they believe the “Word” wasn’t personal, but a way of talking about God’s conception of Jesus in his own mind before he brought him into existence. I think. They share this view with other Unitarians of the Socinian variety in groups such as the Church of God of Abrahamic Faith, Sir Anthony Buzzard and others. Sam Tideman is great at explaining these things:
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wozza
So if The holy spirit fell upon Mary (an imperfect sinner like we all are supposed to be) ,the imperfect egg in her body was inseminated by a supposedly perfect sperm ,and this genetic code from both of them eventually became Jesus?
Then Jesus was a hybrid species ,sort of like mating a horse with a donkey ,and getting a mule which can't reproduce ? But are'nt we told that he was perfect in human form ?
I can't find any specific statement saying that the holy spirit made Mary's egg perfect ,can anyone?
Could Jesus have been imperfect then until he was taken up to heaven ? Was he only half perfect?
If Jesus was imperfect to a degree then did he actually offer a perfect sacrifice for mankind to be saved?
Do the catholics believe Mary was made perfect at the holy spirit insemination of her ? and is that why they worship her as a perfect being?
Round and round we go the ragged rock of man made religious stories that never harmonise with reality.
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peacefulpete
The Christ figure was a pliable icon that dozens of very different sects held as central to their identity and soteriology. They imagined and described him differently. A few of these conceptions became unnaturally collected together through the Catholic process of canonization. Even among this emerging orthodoxy, this artificial collection resulted in endless controversy.
For example:
- Sabellianism = One and the same substance
- Homoousian = Distinct but identical substance
- Homoiousian = Similar in substance
- Neo-Arianism or heteroousians = Unlike in substance
- Homoianism refuses to refer to substance.