by Pleasuredome 36 Replies latest watchtower bible
how does the WTS explain that the sum total of symbolic numbers equals a literal number? Rev 7:4-8
logic says that if the sum parts are symbolic, then the total can only be symbolic. if 144,000 is literal then all of its sum parts should be literal too.
totally illogical.
Well - if it's literal that explains why it's taken so long for Armageddon. I mean - where can you find 144,000 virgin males??
I have expounded this idea many times. The society claims that every other number in Revelation is symbolic - 3, 7, 10, 12. Yet, when a number comes along with obvious symbolic connotations (10x10x10x12x12), they say it is literal.
By numbering 12,000 persons out of each of the 12 tribes, the book is obviously referring to a full, complete group - everyone.
Why can't they see such an obvious fact?
Rich, of course it is all literal. As long as we take the 144k as literal, then the rest is too. I've been looking for those guys for a while now. I'm looking for:
They should be pretty easy to spot. Anbody seen there guys?
Buster,
And don't forget that they are standing upon Mount Zion and no deceit can be found on their lips.
The number is LITERAL (may you all have peace!) -
144,000 taken "from among the sons of ISRAEL..." AND "a great crowd" which NO man is able to number."
These, TOGETHER, "render sacred service in the temple [of God]" (for ONLY priests can render sacred service"... and RULE AS KINGS AND PRIESTS."
Revelation 7:4, 9, 15
Revelation 5:9, 10
This was the "sacred secret" that Paul spoke about in Romans Chapter 11. The promise to be a "people for a special possession," a "holy nation," was ORIGINALLY held out to Israel, NOT because of anything special with Israel, but because of a PROMISE... made to Abraham! However, the Jews... "stumbled over the rock"... CHRIST! Rather than accepting as their king the One whom God APPOINTED... they impaled him. As a result, the "seats" that WOULD have gone to ALL of Israel... were given to the nations. However, since He PROMISED Abraham that by means of his "seed", ALL the nations of the earth would bless themselves... and that "seed" was, first, Christ, then my Father held over 144,000 slots... for Abraham's seed.
TOGETHER... the 144,000 from among the sons of Israel... AND the great crowd of people out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people... rule as kings... and render sacred service as priests.
Again, I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Aguest...If you choose to believe so noone could dissuade you. If however you are correct then God has arbitrarily limited entry to Jews to a preset quota based upon racial orientation. Or conversly he has extended this honor to the best qualified from among a closed subset which necessarily involves exclusion of more qualified individuals from outside the subset. This also ignores the issue of racial purity. Does a man who has a small amount of gentile/goyim blood in him still qualify? How about the Gentile/Goyim with a small amount of Jew in his blood? what perentage qualifies him for benefits? For American Indians 1/8 stills qualifies a person for government assistance. Will God use the same standard? It is time for logical reassessment.
Will someone tell me please, why 2 original tribes are missing and replaced with 2 others. This always confused me..After all, that was the 'reasoning' that the wt gave me to show that this did not mean the 12 tribes of Israel...help? Thanks, dj
Dearest PeacefulPete... and DJ... may you have peace!
DJ, I am compelled to answer you first:
The 12 tribes include two (2) for Joseph... and none for Dan... based on the fact that Joseph, and not Reuben, was given the "double share" entitled to the "firstborn." Although Reuben was Israel (Jacob's) firstborn by means of Leah, Reuben lost his birthright (Gen. 49:3) so that it went to the firstborn of Rachel, Joseph, by means of his sons Ephraim (Joseph) and Mannaseh. Dan lost his birthright, his place among the 12 tribes... when he refused to remove the peoples from the land given him by Jah.
Dearest peacefulpete… may you have peace.
If you choose to believe so no one could dissuade you.
Actually, this is not true. I (truly) believed one thing before becoming a JW… and I was dissuaded. And I (truly) believed another thing AS a JW… and was dissuaded.
If however you are correct then God has arbitrarily limited entry to Jews to a preset quota based upon racial orientation.
Unfortunately, your presumption is in error, for you misread the statements… and purpose. God has not arbitrarily LIMITED the Jews… or Israel. GOD… extended MERCY to Abraham’s seed… because He made a promise to Abraham! In TRUTH… Israel… and thus, the Jews… STUMBLED over Christ… and by that very thing, SHOULD have lost their right, entirely. But God is merciful and His love for Israel did not evaporate, although THEIR love… or rather, their lack of it… was demonstrated by their treatment of His Son. The very One sent to SAVE them… impaled him. (“Jerusalem, Jerusalem…”).
So that once my Lord died in the flesh… a few things happened:
1. The curtain separating man from the Most Holy was rent in two so that now, THROUGH CHRIST… ANYONE could “enter” – Jew or Gentile, Israel OR the nations.
2. By means of this, the nations, “a people NOT my people (Israel), will be CALLED my people.” This was because now,
3. The “fence” that separated Israel from the nations, the LAW COVENANT, had been fulfilled, impaled with Christ, so that it could be moved out of the way. For the Law Covenant, mediated by Moses, prevented the nations from coming to God… for the nations were a people “unclean and uncircumcised.” And the Law said one MUST be clean… and one MUST be circumcised.
Under the NEW Covenant, which ANY man… Jew or Greek (for God is NOT partial) could come into a relationship with God as their Father, by means of Christ. And neither circumcision, nor adherence to the features of the Law Covenant… were required. Thus, NOW, by means of CHRIST… the ALL the nations of the earth would bless themselves, and not just Israel. For there were those… of the nations… who proved themselves more righteous than Israel, by means of their faith in Christ… whom Israel… rejected.
BUT… so as not to negate His promise to Abraham, my Father made sure that Abraham’s seed… was covered. Thus, they were given seats as FIRSTFRUITS… 144,000 from among the sons of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. In this way, Israel… the LITTLE “flock” is brought in.
However, the kings and priests of my Father and Lord will number “as the sands of the sea.” For there are those from among the NATIONS… who “prove” themselves the seed of Abraham, NOT by blood… but by FAITH. TOGETHER… with the little flock… these OTHER sheep… make up ONE flock! ONE nation. TOGETHER… the little flock of 144,000 from Israel… and the great crowd which NO man is able to number… become a royal priesthood, a people for special possession… kings and priests out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people… and not just out of Israel, which is what was first set up (under the Law Covenant).
Revelation 5:9, 10
And the great crowd ALSO includes those from Israel, Jews and Samaritans alike, for they are from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people. The only “exclusive” group… is the 144,000… and they are NOT 100% pure blooded Jews, but those of Israel who did not “defile” themselves with “women”… harlots… FALSE RELIGION… the “daughters of Babylon.”
Or conversly he has extended this honor to the best qualified from among a closed subset which necessarily involves exclusion of more qualified individuals from outside the subset.
Again, you are in error. It is Undeserved kindness for ALL who receive it… and it is not of our own choosing. God extends mercy to whomever HE wishes… for whatever reason He wishes. The only qualification that these would have, then, would be their faith… to the preserving alive of the SOUL.
This also ignores the issue of racial purity.
I am sorry, but I must disagree that it does not, for racial purity is not an issue. It is not a requirement. Under the Law Covenant it USED to be. But that Law... was fulfilled, and so no longer applies. There is a NEW law... one that says it is by FAITH that a man can be declared righteous.
Does a man who has a small amount of gentile/goyim blood in him still qualify?
Absolutely. I am one of those “men”… an African American woman by nationality… and yet, a direct descendant of Abraham by means of his son, Ben-Jah-Min. If you will recall, Israel was “scattered”… among the nations. As to what “group” I would fall in… the 144,000 or the great crowd, I do not know. Truly, though, it does not matter. For a LEAST one in the kingdom of the heavens is better than a greatest one here. If I am in the last group of the last tribe of the last nation… I would not care. So long as I am IN the “household.” But my gate would be “Ben-Jah-Min” for it is his blood that in my veins, as I have heard from my Lord when he “sealed” me in my forehead.
How about the Gentile/Goyim with a small amount of Jew in his blood?
Again, I am one of those “men.” And there are many others.
What percentage qualifies him for benefits?
There is no percentage. A drop of Abraham’s blood constitutes one as Abraham’s seed.
For American Indians 1/8 stills qualifies a person for government assistance.
Why would you even deign to compare what earthling man considers with what God considers? God's thoughts are not like our thoughts… but higher.
Will God use the same standard?Why in the world would He? Does not the blood “cry out” so that God KNOWS who Abraham’s seed is by MEANS of the blood that is in such ones? In ancient times, a chronology was kept for the very purpose of setting forth who the seed was, tribe by tribe, according to the “heads.” Since all things have passed, however, from what is fleshly and “under Law”… to that which is SPIRITUAL… no WRITTEN chronology need be kept. Why? Because God’s spirit knows who is who… for it is the spirit, the water… and the BLOOD… that bear witness.
It is time for logical reassessment.
Indeed, I agree.
And, again, I bid you peace.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Aguest, I hate to say anything bad about your bizarre collection of mumbo-jumbo, but how would there be 12000 distinct members for each of the Hebrew tribes still distinct? It's impossible because of the diaspora (and no doubt the tribal structure had already broken down during the two monarchies, (Monarchist governments tend to override older tribal forms of organization) if in fact there really were twelve distinct tribes at all.
