To celebrate or not to celebrate (page 2)

Frenchy

Question: Would an electronic 'smooch' be out of line for mothers's day????

-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

waiting

Dear Frenchy,

An electronic smoocher is quite safe by now - Mother's Day has come and gone - this year.

When my long suffering husband says things like that to me, I usually respond with: "You fool." Which he responds with: "Well, if I Mr. Fool, you're Mrs. Fool." One of those circular arguments Friend warned us about?

I do think, however, the Society goes overboard against holidays. IMO, I don't see what's wrong with Mother's Day or Father's Day - there is no religious connotations involved. And why shouldn't we think about them (or me) one friggin' day a year?

And before I get off my soapbox, for those persons who leave the truth and start celebrating some, or all, holidays, I think gifts should be forthcoming. My children aren't JWs, but then they also don't want to give gifts.

I think there is a disparity there. I think if you're going to do holidays - you should part with cash that go with them. I can be just as materialistic as the next person, as you can see.

Andyman

Hi Waiting;

Yes if you are going to clebrate you need to "give". My children, 8 and 6, love to buy presents, of course they love to receive them also, but buying and wraping presents really get them excited.

My kids love the holidays, and that is what it is all about!

Take care.

Andyman:

SolidSender

Dubby - check it out - as to be expected the WTBTS is full of double standerds, broad categoriazations and generalizations on this subject. Wedding rings for example and wedding anniversaries. Look at it this way, at least if you have an unbreakabble spirit sooner or later the WTBTS is gonna spit you out - maybe not as it found you but a godsend non the less -SolidSender

SolidSender

Dear Frenchy, thanks for your thoughts, but with all due respect I beg to differ, it is that simple. I'll try and give you an example of what I'm trying to say, please let me know if you think it's total bullshit. Have you seen the film The Horse Whisperer? check it out if you havn't. To me the film was dealing mainly with issues such as instinct and intuition. It seemed to me that the Redford charachter, being the Horse Whisperer, as a kind of Shaman if you will, was deeply in touch with this particular side of himself and of this particular side of not only the horses but the people around him as well. For example as the stoary unfolds - the female lead, her daughter and the female leads husband. The female lead is portrayed as an intelligent, New York based, English College educated, succesful, up market magazine editor. Anyway the point I'm wanting to get at here is there's a scene, where the male and female lead are alone in a barn or something, it's kind of a pivotal moment in the film, they realise that they are falling in love, in the discussion they have, i can't remember the exact dialogue but the general thrust of what they say is, the female lead is uncertain about what to do saying that "it's difficult" or "not that easy" a decision to make - the male lead, the horse whisperer says "it is that simple". I took this to mean that he was a person who had a good strong clear connection with the little voice inside, or whatever you want to call it, intuition, you know - you know the answer intuitively, he had a strong sense of himself, and who he was. In a long winded roundabout way what I'm saying is that I think these matters we discuss here are that simple. In my humble opinion it is this inner intuitive voice mechanism within us that the WTBTS fucks with via it's program of indoctrination. That's why we think these decisions are hard.-SolidSender

Dubby

SS,

You're right, the WTBTS is full of double standards. The word "Orwellian" comes to mind. It's a confusing religion.

They do indeed frick with one's mind. I read somewhere that JW's have the highest incidense of mental illness. I'm not sure if it's true, but it wouldn't suprise me.

waiting

Hey, Dubby,

I read somewhere that JW's have the highest incidense of mental illness. I'm not sure if it's true, but it wouldn't suprise me.

I don't think that point can be proven. Would need statistics, and I'm pretty sure the WTBTS would not be forthcoming. Because of their strong, totalitarion teachings/committment, I would think that depression is rampant among JW's.

But then, a good portion of the USA is on Prozac, alchohal, etc., so maybe the depressed JW's just mirror society.

waiting

SolidSender

Dubby - hi. You said:

I guess I'm intrigued with the Society's convoluted reasons for not participating in some holidays.

Well I guess I'm intrigued with the Society's convoluted reasons for everything. Looking at it objectively it would have to rank as one of, if not the most successful mindcontrol operations of all time. I am constantly in awe of the ingenious, diabolical brilliance of their strategy. -SolidSender

Frenchy

Solid: I’ve never seen the movie but I can relate to the scene in the barn as you described it. The woman is married and falling in love with the hired help, I’m assuming that’s the thrust of it. The decision is whether to pursue this and leave her husband or drop it and remain with her husband. Is that the choice that she is facing? If so, then whether or not it’s a simple choice is totally dependent on the person she is. Granted, the choice, i.e., stay or leave, is simple enough to state but the processes involved in making that decision is something else entirely. If you have never stood at the crossroads of decision, weighing out your own happiness against that of others in order to decide your path then I can well appreciate your viewpoint on the matter. There are times when the needs of others take precedence over our own needs and happiness. That is duty. Parents should be very aware of this as should husbands and wives. There is a song, which I think well illustrates this dilemma. I forget the singer and the writer (shame on me) but it’s the classic love triangle. The man is at his crossroads. The time has come to make the decision. Though he deeply loves his mistress, he cannot find one single thing that his wife has done wrong. She was there when times were tough, and she loves him dearly. The second hardest thing he will ever do is tell his mistress goodbye and walk away. The hardest thing he will ever do is hold his wife while he’s in love with the other woman. I truly hope that you (or anyone else for that matter) will never experience such a thing but if you can, hold that thought in your mind for a few moments and see if you can feel what he is feeling.
It could be argued that he should follow his heart inasmuch as he will never be completely true to his wife anymore --BUT…he could never be happy even with the woman he loves knowing the pain that he has caused his wife. The cost of his freedom was too great for him to ever forget it. He will go back to his wife ( it assumed she knows nothing about this or knows and still wants him) and he will find some satisfaction in knowing that at least she is happy. He will hurt terribly knowing that the other woman will hurt just as much as him. In this terrible, no-win situation, duty (as he perceives it) wins out over happiness….because his perception of his duty will not allow happiness without it anyway. In the end, a measure of satisfaction (contentment, peace) is achieved in the performance of his duty. Such is the power of the sense of duty and responsibility, of committment.
To a JW, his dedication to Jehovah God on the basis of what he has been taught by the WTS is stronger than his union with his mate. To leave the organization is more traumatic than a divorce. The person has to first convince himself that this organization has been 'unfaithful' and is unrepentant in its acts of 'unfaithfulness' and that this organization no longer (he believed it once did) loves him before he can detach himself emotionally and mentally from it. Even then...it is no easy task, memories remain, emotions still surface from time to time...No, my friend, there is nothing simple about it at all...

Frenchy

Now, as to the holidays, since that is the subject of this thread... I see nothing wrong with celebrating Mothers' Day or Father's Day or someone's birthday inasmuch as these are not religious observances. Chrismas, on the other hand, can in no stretch of the reasonable imagination be construed as the celebrating of Christ's birthday. It's plain silly. Easter eggs and chocolate bunny rabbits are not the way to celebrate the death or resurrection of Christ. As for the rest, well...???

-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

To celebrate or not to celebrate

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