Shall we base our opinion on WT's lifespan, a modern multi-billion dollar corporation, on the 3000 year old writings of a goat herder?
Makes sense considering how accurate all that other story telling has proven to be.
When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?
by Hiddenservant 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Vidqun
First of all, what should be kept in mind, the book of Daniel has been sealed to this day (cf. Dan. 12:4), so one cannot be dogmatic as to one’s interpretation. Regarding the Seventy Weeks Prophecy, there are countless opinions as to its interpretation and calculation. Evangelical Christians see v. 27 as taking place in the great tribulation with the rebuilding of the temple and the False Messiah or antichrist making a covenant with the Jews. An important reason why the seventy weeks of years should not be split up, to counter such overactive and dangerous imaginations.
Recently some scholars assert that Jesus was killed in 30 CE and not 33 CE. However, the earthquake activity, as analyzed by the German Research Center for Geosciences, convinced me to stick to Hoehner’s interpretation (give or take a day or two) until such time when evidence comes to the fore that forces me to change my mind (Hoehner, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ; Part VI: Daniel’s Seventy Weeks and New Testament Chronology,” pp. 47-65).
To analyze ancient earthquake activity in Palestine, geologist Jefferson Williams of Supersonic Geophysical and colleagues Markus Schwab and Achim Brauer of the German Research Center for Geosciences, studied three cores from the beach of the Ein Gedi Spa adjacent to the Dead Sea. Varves, which are annual layers of deposition in the sediments, reveal that at least two major earthquakes affected the core: a widespread earthquake in 31 BCE, and a seismic event that happened sometime between the years 26 and 36 CE. The latter period occurred during “the years when Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judea and when the earthquake of the Gospel of Matthew is historically constrained,” Williams said. When data about the Jewish calendar and astronomical calculations are factored in, a handful of possible dates result for Jesus’ death, with Friday, April 3, 33 CE, being the best match, according to the researchers.
As to the format of vv. 26, 27, the verses correspond. This is how I see it:
26 And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. [Messiah]
And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. [Romans]
27 And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. [Messiah]
And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate. [Romans] (Dan. 9:26, 27 NWT)
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Hiddenservant
"First of all, what should be kept in mind, the book of Daniel has been sealed to this day (cf. Dan. 12:4), so one cannot be dogmatic as to one’s interpretation."
It has been sealed. Correct. However, there is something else that should be kept in mind also. Malachi and Jesus Christ foretold that a final prophet and messenger would be sent to God's people just before the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. (Mal 3:1, 4:5; Matt 17:11) Christ made it clear that this man would "restore all things" which includes the restoration of true Christian doctrine and a correct understanding of chronology and prophecy, including a warning of judgements to come upon God's people for their "transgression." (Dan 8:12) That transgression is spoken of in the Seventy Weeks prophecy (Dan 9:24).
Furthermore, Genesis and Christ foretold that a faithful and discreet slave in the manner of Joseph would be sent ahead of God's people to deliver them from a (spiritual) famine (a lack of knowledge) (Hosea 4:6).
Joseph was faithful when tested (Gen. 39:9).
He was made discreet (wise) (Gen 41:33,39).
He was a slave (Gen 39:17,19; 41:12) and
appointed over all the master's belongings (Potiphar, the Jailer, and Pharaoh) (Gen 39:4-5).
Finally, he delivered life-saving food at the proper time to the "domestics" (household of God - the future twelve tribes) during a famine (Gen 41:53-57).
"Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings."
Yes, the story of Joseph is a type with a modern-day antitype.
I am the final prophet and messenger of Jehovah. I am the man who has been made discreet, like Joseph, and sent ahead of God's people to deliver food at the proper time to the domestics. This interpretation of the Seventy Weeks that I have shared here is just a small portion of that life-preserving spiritual food. More can be seen in my 10 Quora Spaces and on my YouTube channel.
Christ died in 30 CE and he will return for the anointed in 2030 at the end of the antitypical 70th week. The Great Tribulation will begin in 2027 when the Watchtower Society is desolated.
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Jehalapeno
I am the final prophet and messenger of Jehovah. I am the man who has been made discreet, like Joseph, and sent ahead of God's people to deliver food at the proper time to the domestics. This interpretation of the Seventy Weeks that I have shared here is just a small portion of that life-preserving spiritual food. More can be seen in my 10 Quora Spaces and on my YouTube channel.
Christ died in 30 CE and he will return for the anointed in 2030 at the end of the antitypical 70th week. The Great Tribulation will begin in 2027 when the Watchtower Society is desolated.LOL
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not." - Matthew 24:23, KJV
I'd say more, but it's not nice to make fun of the mentally ill.
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Vidqun
Hiddenservant, I am sure you, as special representative of Jehovah, is familiar with the two witnesses of Revelation. As witnesses they will be warning the populace of the coming plagues. As prophets they will prophesy against God’s enemies. The scriptures you quoted (Mal. 3:1; Matt. 17:11) actually applies to them. According to the natural progression of the book of Revelation, they are to start their public ministry during the great tribulation, i.e., after the sixth trumpet blast. Interestingly, they will also be temple builders, similar to Zerubbabel and Joshua (Rev. 11:4; cf. Zech. 4:14). They will assist in completing God’s temple with living stones (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). Perhaps we should wait for them to clear the way and not run ahead.
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Hiddenservant
Vidqun, The two witnesses are one man with a dual role as Moses and Elijah. The number two is symbolic. It means that his message is true. I have made a video explaining how the original text of Revelation reveals that the two witnesses are a single person. It also explains the Bridegroom of Blood prophetic drama which is another type/antitype prophecy concerning the prophet like Moses, as the two witnesses. (Ex 4:24-26)
Moses delivered God's people from a tyrannical world empire, as I will do with the eighth king. This is why there are two songs being sung by those who gain victory over the wild beast - the song of the Lamb and the song of Moses. (Rev 15:3) Elijah delivered God's people from Babylonish teachings and practices, as I will do. It's all in my Quora Spaces and on my YouTube channel.
I am the two witnesses. Yes, my commission includes the rebuilding of God's "temple" (his people) as Zerubbabel and Joshua. You can wait for my 42 month ministry to begin in 2027 or you can see my message right now as I prepare the way for Christ to come and cleanse his temple and refine his people during the real, future parousia. (Mal 3:1-4)
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Vidqun
We read of the transfiguration in the Synoptic Gospels, the import of the occasion suggested by the fact that it appears at length in Matthew (16:27-17:13), Mark (9:1-13) as well as Luke (9:27-36). The accounts were confirmed by Peter (2 Peter 1:16-18).Those accounts suggest we are to look out for two persons, and not one. Additional reasons to follow:
Nowhere in Revelation do we have an example of two for the price of one. Not only are these real persons, but also there is no reason to believe that there are more than two or fewer than two. Why? (1) In Jewish law two witnesses were sufficient to establish a fact (Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15; cf. Matt. 18:16; John 8:17; Heb. 10:28). Since in the Old Testament context the two witnesses are literal persons, not symbolic of a larger group of people, the same is probably the case in Revelation 11. (2) Other numbers in the immediate context (Rev 11) are best understood as literal, and so these should be also. References are made to forty-two months (v. 2), 1,260 days (v. 3), two olive trees and two lampstands (v. 4), three and one-half days (vv. 9, 11), one-tenth of the city (v. 13), seven thousand people (v. 13), second and third woes (v. 14), a seventh angel (v. 15), and twenty-four elders (v. 16).
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Hiddenservant
"Nowhere in Revelation do we have an example of two for the price of one."
Incorrect. The original Greek of Revelation 11:9 reveals that the two witnesses have dead bodies (plural). However, Revelation 11:8 reveals that the two witnesses have a dead body (singular). Similarly, the Greek of Revelation 11:5 says that they have a mouth (singular) and not mouths. You can see this on Biblehub interlinear.
If the two olive trees and two lampstands ("standing before the Lord of the Earth") are to be understood literally, then there must be four witnesses. Likewise, if the two withesses are Moses and Elijah and Joshua and Zerubbabel, to accept this as literal would mean that there are also four witnesses. Clearly, there are not. We do not see Joshua and Zerubbabel standing before the Christ during the transfiguration, yet we know that they are a part of the "two" witnesses.
It's not literally a tenth of a city (or a city at all) or literally 7,000 persons. These are symbolic numbers. Revelation is a mixture of symbolic and literal.
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Vidqun
Hiddenservant, nothing unusual with the Greek singular in this case. It's actually called a collective singular:
Rev. 11:8f (τὸ πτῶμα αὐτῶν in vss. 8 and 9a, τὰ πτώματα αὐτῶν 9b). See BDAG. In the NT is confined to its late sense (cf. Rutherford NP p. 472 f.) of “a dead body”: cf. the collective sing., as in Rev 11:8.
The collective singular occurs in many languages, especially Hebrew, but also in English:
A noun in the singular may denote a number of persons or things: ὁ Μῆδος the Medes Thucydides 1. 69, τὸ Ἑλληνικόν the Greeks 1. 1, τὸ βαρβαρικόν the barbarians 7. 29, ἡ πλίνθος the bricks 3. 20, ἵππον ἔχω εἰς χῑλίᾱν I have about a thousand horse Xenophon Cyropaedia 4. 6. 2, μῡρίᾱ ἀσπίς ten thousand heavy armed Xenophon Anabasis 1. 7. 10. On the plural verb with, see 950. Cp. 1024, 1044.
Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges (New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company, 1920), 269.
Furthermore, I think you're reaching with the two olive trees and two lampstands. These should be viewed within the context of Zerubbabel and Joshua. Your argument reminds me of the Trinitarian controversy: 1+1+1 = 1. You: 1 + 1 = 1, totally illogical. If you imagine yourself as one of the two witnesses, I'm afraid you'll have to look for a partner.
Yes, a great deal of Revelation is symbolic. The rest of us need to logically study, compare and view the context. Talking of "city," how do you interpret "the great city" and "the holy city" of Rev. 11? There's an important distinction there.
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Hiddenservant
Vidqun,
I never said that there was anything unusual about the singular Greek, athough Aritficial Intelligence makes this point about the shift from the singular "body" to plural "bodies":
- Greek Grammar: While uncommon, ancient Greek grammar could sometimes use the singular to refer to something with multiple parts. However, the intentional shift here seems more likely to be for emphasis.
- Literary Style: Revelation employs symbolic language and imagery. The shift might be a literary device to create a specific effect.
What is unusual is that both the singular and plural are used to describe the same outcome - death. AI agrees that the shift is emphasizing a point and that it is symbolic language. The point being emphasized is this: the two witnesses are a single person (body) with a true message (bodies) and the end of my commission results in the death of both myself and my commission. This is why people rejoice at my death. They think it's all over. Likewise, my dead "bodies" will not be seen in some high street in Jerusalem. This is also symbolic language used to convey that all will understand that the death relates to God's people (Jerusalem) and the end of my message.
"And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city.."
The "two" witnesses do in fact personify the distinct roles of four people - Moses, Elijah, Zerubbabel, and Joshua. (Rev 11:4) You yourself stated it. Now you claim that the two witnesses are strictly two people who act like Moses and Elijah only. Which one is it? Make your mind up. The two witnesses are symbolic of a person with multiple roles whose message is true. You are rejecting that message.
Do you understand the Bridegroom of Blood prophecy? The Governing Body do not, but I do because it foretells my exact situation at this moment.