EITHER or NEITHER or BOTH? FORGIVENESS vs ATONEMENT

by Terry 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  On (New Testament scholar) Bart Ehrman's blog, the topic of LUKE's view of the purpose of Jesus'

  death has been discussed.

  In that discussion, Ehrman points out how LUKE did not set forth the idea of ATONEMENT, rather LUKE set forth the idea of FORGIVENESS.

  On the other hand, Mark and Paul teach ATONEMENT.

  These two points of view have been "mashed together" into a package deal, apparently, throughout history by theologians.

  _________________________

  Ehrman uses the following example to illustrate the inherent difference between the two views.

  "Here’s the difference between atonement and free forgiveness. Suppose you owe me a thousand dollars. But you don’t have a thousand dollars to pay me back.

  There are two ways we could deal with this (apart from my taking you to court).

  1. On one hand, you could find someone who would be willing to pay your thousand dollars for you. If they did so, I would accept the payment and then let you off the hook. I wouldn’t care who paid the money, so long as I got paid.

  2. Alternatively, on the other hand, I could simply tell you not to worry about it, that I don’t need the money and you don’t have to repay me.

  The first option is like atonement. Someone pays a debt owed by another.

  The second option is like forgiveness. I forgive you and your debt and no one pays it.

  ______

  Mark, and Paul, have a doctrine of atonement. Jesus’ death is a death “for the sake of others.” He dies in the place of others. His death is a sacrifice that pays the debt that is owed by others.

  Luke does not have a doctrine of the atonement. For him, Jesus’ death makes you realize how you have sinned against God and you turn to God and beg his forgiveness, and he forgives you. No one pays your debt; God simply forgives it."

  ________________________________

  ________________________________

  Before the formation of our current canon, early church fathers did not notice the difference between how Luke and Mark viewed the death of Jesus. It has been a modern discovery by scholars.
  Now that this difference is known, only the fundamentalists choose to ignore it.

  Luke insists that you need to accept the fact that Jesus was God’s messiah, the Son of God. Otherwise, you don’t really believe in God.

  Matthew definitely has a doctrine of atonement, and John too, though in a different way.
  
  Using the thousand dollar example, each one of us owes God a thousand dollars. So God pays himself a thousand dollars and we’re all off the hook. That is atonement.

  ______

  I find this distinction with a difference to be rather interesting and a new idea (for myself) which had not occurred to me at all.

  I'm interested to know what YOU think.

  
  
  
• 

  John Aquila

  I could never wrap around the idea of forgiveness. Forgiveness for what, what did I do??

  Atonement = pay my debt. I never borrowed anything from God.

  But your right, I always noticed that Luke talks about a preaching work that is different from the preaching work that Matthew talks about.

  (Luke 24:47) . . .and on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations. . .

  
  (Matthew 24:14) 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; . . .
  

  Luke preaches forgiveness while Matthew preaches the Kingdom.
  

  Paul was good at tying in the sacrifices of Jewish Law with the death of Jesus and Mark evidently adopted Paul's views since they hung around quit a bit.

  (Acts 12:25) . . .As for Bar′na·bas and Saul, after having fully carried out the relief ministration in Jerusalem, they returned and took along with them John, the one surnamed Mark.
  
  
• 

  runForever

  It sounds like the same thing. Forgiveness just means 'let go of'. So wouldn't that be the same thing if God let go of your sin because of faith? Maybe just two ways of saying the same thing. The 3rd scenario Ehrman could add would be on merit of another. 3. You owe someone a thousand dollars but because you are friends with one of his close friends the debtee lets it go.
• 

  Hisclarkness

  I'm currently researching Paul's usage of "gezerah shavah" in his writings. Is it possible that Paul, being a Jewish scholar in his own right, applied the scriptures regarding the Jewish messiah to Jesus purely in an effort to convert his Jewish audience to becoming followers of Jesus? In other words, is it possible that Jesus DIDN'T die for our sins but Paul used this concept to help the Jews leave off their system of sacrifices and to form a relationship with God based off of Jesus' teachings, namely love?
• 

  prologos

  neither

  The Father [part of] "god" is an unforgiving sort, because he insisted, in his monologues no doubt, on payment of a ransom. The Son part of god seem to have the magic key to suspend that harsh part of the divine, so he could play dead for part of 3 days*, and suspend even the immutable, unforgiving law of gravity, so, was walking on water a pre-cursor, proof of his ability to deliver the ransom?

  now, none of this nonsense would be possible without the talking snake, what a brilliant move to introduce that detail into the early part of the book.

  neither.
• 

  TheWonderofYou

  Neither, both ideas seem to have arosen in jewish environment indeed, but i think they shouldnt be connected or mixed up with the idea of "financial debt towards God", as well as the former opinion that it was a debt to satan was mislesding.

  I cant imagine that the jewish christians thought generally of God in such a manner, that god quantifies sins, failure, guilt as" debts " on an account or on a scale.

  That atonement sacrificies were an back-payment for someone failures or a legal judicial act to justify or satisfy God, than it was a misinterpretation or could have been meant metaphorical.

  Redemption could also be metaphorically explained as backpayment, whereas it means redemption of sins on not of debts, jesus redeems from a sinful way a way of mental slavery not slavery of an inherited debt weight.

  Atonement was used because becsuse for many jews the atonement day in the temple was in good remembrance, but it was clear for everyone that the sins were ritually symbolicly covered and without forgiveness between parties everything was useless anyway.

  At Jesus time mainly Sadducees would insist on a literal adaption and use the thora and sacrificies and put emphazise on the "atoning"and the "arc of the covenant"..and its hilasterion. What I should check whether they used the "debt" Metapher already than.. Pharesean would like to explain the matter more as forgiveness but either not of a debt but more of a sinful behaviour referring more to the prophets and not to leviticus, would be interesting to know how the Essenians thought about it

  God then didnt want anything back, but if someone sinned = chooses a way against his conscience, god wanted repentance of hearts. God didnt want a human sacrifice but human hearts that sacrifice themselves,

  Jesus had such a sacrifing heart, later that was described "gave his life for us", and if we love someone we will have to sacrifice something mostly. So Jesus death was a symbol that love vindicates anything evil.

  So i think this could be how a merciful gods thinks about backpayment, redemption or atonement or forgiveness.
• 

  myelaine

  Psalm 32:1 weaves together the notion of both...transgression against God forgiven/sin covered. (sacrificial blood "applied" to blot out or cover sin for the year...conceptualizing Christ's perpetual priesthood over and against the yearly sacrifices) AND the notion of God not imputing or charging iniquity against a person.

  The two teachings of forgiveness and atonement are wrapped up in the writers expectation of "reconciliation" with God.

  love michelle
• 

  myelaine

  Oh, how great is Your goodness, which You have laid up for those who fear You, which You have prepared for those who trust You in the presence of the sons of men! You shall hide them in the secret place of Your presence from the plots of man; You shall keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.

  Blessed be the LORD, for He has shown me His marvelous kindness in a strong city! For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before Your eyes; Nevertheless You heard the voice of my supplications when I cried out to You. Oh, love the LORD, all you His saints! For the LORD preserves the faithful, and fully repays the proud person. Be of good courage, and He shall strengthen your heart, all you who hope in the LORD. (Psalm 31:19-24)

  xo
• 

  TheWonderofYou

  myelaine

  I like these Psalms you mentioned, here Psalm 32

  
  

  the next one is not so poetic :

  

  
  

  Forgiveness

  „If I showed you my flaws
  If I couldn't be strong
  Tell me honestly would you still love me the same?
  If I got locked away
  And we lost it all today
  Tell me honestly would you still love me the same?“

  Locked Away Songtext

  Facit: How can we receive this FORGIVENESS

  - is it like motherly love or sentimental love?

  - are there preconditions or steps towards it (repentance, confession, public declaration, baptism, reversal, public demonstration of repantence, reparation, compensation......) or is it unconditional love)?

  - is forgiveness a part of the atonement, the last step of it, or are F & A two parallel processes that run at the same time?
• 

  TheWonderofYou

  I found a story about FORGIVENESS

  Paid In Full

  The value of love.

  A touching story to share before Yom Kippur*)

  by Rabbi Go’el Elkarif

  ___

  There is a fellow who owns a jewelry store in Israel. One day a nine year old girl walked into the store and said, “I am here to buy a bracelet.” She looked through the glass cases and pointed to a bracelet that was $3,000. The man behind the counter asked her, “You want to buy that bracelet?”

  “Yes,” she replied.

  “Wow, you have very good taste. Who do you want to buy it for?”

  “For my older sister.”

  “Oh that is so nice!” the storekeeper replied. “Why do you want to buy your older sister this bracelet?”

  “Because I don’t have a mother or father,” the little girl said, “and my older sister takes care of us. So we want to buy her a present, and I’m willing to pay for it.” She pulled out of her pocket a whole bunch of coins that totaled just under eight shekels, a little less than two dollars.

  The fellow says, “Wow! That’s exactly what the bracelet costs!” While wrapping up the bracelet he said to the girl, “You write a card to your sister while I wrap the bracelet.” He finished wrapping the bracelet, wiped away his tears, and handed the little girl the bracelet.

  A few hours later the older sister entered the store. “I’m terribly embarrassed,” she said. “My sister should not have come here. She shouldn’t have taken it without paying.”

  “What are you talking about?” the storekeeper asked.

  “What do you mean? This bracelet costs thousands of dollars. My little sister doesn’t have thousands of dollars – she doesn’t even have ten dollars! Obviously she didn’t pay for it.”

  “You couldn’t be more wrong,” the storekeeper replied. “She paid me in full. She paid seven shekel, eighty agurot, and a broken heart. I want to tell you something. I am a widower. I lost my wife a number of years ago. People come into my store every single day. They come in and buy expensive pieces of jewelry, and all these people can afford it. When your sister walked in, for the first time in so very long since my wife had died, I once again felt what love means.”

  He gave her the bracelet and wished her well.

  During the High Holy Days, we come to the Almighty and we want to buy something very expensive. We want to buy life. But we cannot afford it. We don’t have enough money to pay for it. We don’t have the merits. So we come to the Almighty and we empty out our pockets, giving him whatever merits we have plus promises for the future. I’ll pick up the phone and call someone who is lonely, I will learn an extra five minutes of Torah, I will be kind and I will be scrupulous about not speaking lashon hara (gossip) for one hour a day.

  The Almighty says, “You don’t know how long it’s been since I’ve felt what love means.” He sees how much we love Him and how much we yearn to improve, and He says, “You know what? You have touched my heart. Here it is, paid in full.”

  The story was told over by Rabbi Go’el Elkarif who said he heard it from the person to whom it happened.

  *) The "Day of Atonement" is the most important jewish Holy Day, the 10th' day of the period called "Ten Days of Repentance" which begin with the Rosh Hashanah ("Jewish New Year"). These days are called the "High Holy Days".