True Prophecy

by littleone 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

crossroads

Littleone-if know one has ever seen the FATHER who
did Abraham walk with? Who did Jacob wrestle with?
Who created this place-Yahwah says he did-Jesus says
he did. No conflict there if they are the same. I use to have
a paper around her with the scriputures on it can't seem
to find it. Anyway it has been discussed and some scholar
has written on the subject. I know this sounds like a
Fred Franz discourse [nothing to back me up]. But think
about my questions
littleone

Hi Crossroads,
I'm sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but I was busy. You asked a very interesting question 'Is Jesus Jehovah'? I am familiar with two of the passages that you mentioned, but not the third. The first is about Abraham --Genesis Chapt 18, the second about Jacob --Genesis 32:24-32. After reading these passages, I see how that scholar that you mentioned would come to these conclusions. But here is a little insight from the rest of the scriptures:
Let's first take a look at the one you mentioned about Jacob. It says in Genesis 32:28 "Then he said: "Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel, for you have contended with God and with men so that you at last prevailed." Also in verse 30 it says: "Hence Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, because, to quote him, "I have seen God face to face and yet my soul was delivered." Based on this, that scholar must have said "so you have it, Jacob seen Jehovah". But lets take a look at what Hosea said about the same event. In Hosea 12:3,4 it says "In the belly he seized his brother by the heel, and with his dynamic energy he contended with God. And he kept contending with an ANGEL and gradually prevailed." We see from this account that it was actually an angel, not Jehovah himself. Why does it say that he contended with God, if it was actually an angel? The reason is because he was a ambassador of Jehovah's and to contend with him was likened to contending with Jehovah himself. This principle was applied in Jesus Christ himself, was not the rejection of him also the rejection of his father? Also for Jesus' disiples, was not the rejection of them actually a rejection of Jesus himself, and coming to their aid likened to coming to Jesus' aid. "Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me."-Matt 25:20 and...."Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me."-Matt 25:45
Now concerning Abraham, let's see what the same writer of Genesis, namely Moses said concerning seeing Jehovah in another book of the bible--Exodus. In Exodus 33:18 Moses asks Jehovah: "Cause me to see, please, your glory." In answer to him Jehovah said: "You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live." This was written by the same writer that wrote Genesis, (most scholars would agree) but yet he mentions that it was impossible to see his face and yet live. So we must come also to the same conclusion that in Gen 18, it MUST have been an angel rather then Jehovah himself. Jesus also bears witness when he says: "Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father."-John 6:46
'But wait now littleone, you still haven't proved that Jehovah and Jesus are not the same person.' Let's look at what Jesus himself bore witness to when quoting the Hebrew scriptures. Let's consider Matthew 22:41-45:
"Now while the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them: "What do YOU think about the Christ? (referring to himself) Whose son is he?" They said to him: "David's." He said to them: "How, then , is it that David by inspiration calls him 'Lord,' saying, 'Jehovah (I will admit that most translations do not use the word 'Jehovah' anywhere in the Greek scriptures) said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet"'? If, therefore, David calls him 'Lord,' how is he his son?""
From this passage it is obvious that Jesus was quoting Psalms 110:1 (few if any scholars would disagree). Looking back to the Hebrew scriptures in Psalms 110:1 (where the tetragrammation is used -Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehowah, etc..) it says: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:" Here Jehovah himself is speaking to "my Lord" that is where David is refering to Jesus. The 'Lord' is the Christ referred to in this Psalm. Jesus himself quoted from this Psalm to prove that David did indeed call him 'my Lord'. So this identifies the 'my Lord' spoken about in this Psalm as Jesus, but yet Jehovah is speaking to him. This is solid proof that the 'Father' spoken about in the Greek scriptures is Jehovah.
I hope that this helped you, since you do not believe in the Trinity. Trinitarians would probably say otherwise, but that is a whole other topic to discuss at another time. I hope YOU can make sense out of what I wrote. With Love,
littleone
littleone

Hi Gopher,
I am glad that you enjoyed my post. You asked me who I thought is Jehovah's mouthpiece today? First of all Jesus told us that the 'greatest one must be your servant' not your 'lord'. Christians should never lord it over their brother. So do not go after the 'boys' that want all the glitz, rather, go after Jesus. He is your head, and also he is the 'way' and the 'life'. Don't come under bondage of men again....this would be a tragedy. Also, remember the story of Gideon...how Jehovah told him to take the army down to the river to drink water. Only 300 were selected....do you know why? Jehovah said: "Every one that laps up some of the water with his tongue just as a dog laps, you will set him by himself, also every one that bends down upon his knees to drink."-Judges 7:5 These were not suitable because of the way they drank. Jesus says: "Come, and drink life's water free." Yes Jesus gives us life's waters, which are teachings contained in God's word. Some though give bitter waters for you to drink, and you are doing well to stay clear of those. But how do you know which waters are good and bad? By feeling them out, and putting them to the test. You see, many in Gideon's army were getting down on their hands and knees and drinking up the water like a dog. This symbolizes many who drink down anything that is put before them, like many witnesses who devour their Watchtowers, and lick up the teachings (like dogs) put forth, not questioning them. Likewise, those who were bending down upon thier knees, are likened to those who are in a submissive state, those who are in total submission to certain teachings and not keeping their guard for bitter things which they too will also drink. But be like the wise ones who 'felt' the waters with thier hand, and brought the water to their mouth with their hand. They are likened to those who check things out to see whether they are so. Checking God's word to see if the things being taught are really so. Sorry for ranting on....I get like that at times.
But as for who is god's mouthpiece? You can recall from the scriptures, that there were times when Jehovah was not spreading along any prophecy or visions (consider the time during the kingdom of Greece). But when his due time comes (he decides) he does send things to his household of faith, and sometimes by prophets. And I believe that those ones who he will send will be of 'the seed of Abraham'(Gal 3:29) However, how Jehovah gets his message to who he wants and when he wants is up to him, and which method he chooses-- likewise. My only advice is "Form a longing for the unadulterated milk belonging to the word, that through it YOU may grow to salvation"-1Pet 2:2
With Love,
littleone
Gopher

Hey Littleone,
ROFL at your application of Judges chapter 7! I never thought of it that way, people "lapping up" whatever spiritual sludge is served up without even thinking! I am glad to be out here and free, able to critically think about matters, as most members of this board now do.
Also I'm glad you're not dogmatic in the matter of exactly who prophecy comes through. If we're flexible and open to new understanding, it may come from a source we never expected! As Jesus said, wisdom can even come from children.
Thanks again for the thoughtful post. (Someone elsewhere said thoughtful posts on this board are being ignored, so I thought I'd at least give this one a fair shake!)
Gopher
crossroads

littleone-Jesus and Yahwah please explain these,
Oh and I said in my post it was a bit like franz the other
night no proof-please you do the same if you use thus and so conclusions like the insight book does ok.
Here's the scriptures,
Zachariah-11:13 and 12:10--Matt-26:15[30-pieces of silver]
Isaiah-44:24-John-1:3-Col-1:15-18[Who created this place]
Rev-1:8-2:8 and 22:13[Jesus is speaking]
The Father is the Father:::Jesus-Yahwah-Lord-whatever
name you prefer is the same. The earth and Humankind
is HIS game the universe well we haven't got the scrolls
about that yet. Do you really think in all this infinite vastness
we are all alone. Why did HE create everything else?
We always here about a purpose for this and a purpose
for that tell me whats the purpose of solar systems we
can't even see? I'm kidding about you answering that
the scriptures will do just fine. Oh and I'll look at your
thus and so stuff better tomorrow, have a good nite.
James

To littleone
(this was my Post in the topic about the 'Israel of God', time ago. I think it can be a contribution to what you said! Good so!)
The founder and first editor of the WT magazine, C.T. Russel, was not unaware of the history of deviation of the early christian congregation from an original simple brotherhood into an institutionalized religion with a centralized structure. Already at his beginning the president stressed the need of modern day christians not to follow the existing religious organizations, which had ist distinctive set of teachings, that all must adopt to be recognized members.
These points were in part quoted in the WT magazine of March 1, 1979:" (quoting from the WT magazine of 1884) New readers in all parts of the country are constantly inquiring: By what names do you call yourselves?".. and quoting from the WT of February 1884:"We belong to no earthly organization;...All the saints now living or have lived during this age belonged to our church organization: such are all ONR CHURCH, and there is no other recognized by the Lord. Hence any earthly organization which in the least interferes with this union of saints is contrary to the teachings of Scripture and opposed to the Lord’s will - ‘that they may be one’. (John 17:11)"
What the writer of the WT magazine of March 1, 1979, forgot (?) to quote, were the other points of the 1884 article:" By what name may this Church be called? We answer, By the name of ist founder and instituter - Christ -.....And so, by whatsoever names men may call us, it matters not to us;..we call ourselves simply Christians and we raise no fence to separate from us any who believe in the foundation Stone of our building [Christ]..".
This attitude continued for decades later, as showed in the WT September 15, 1895:
„Beware of organization: It is wholly unnecessary..Do not seek to bind others consciences and do not permit others to bind yours." Russel and his early associates were actually anti-earthly organization! Most of modern day JW don’t know at all these things and they aren’t encouraged to read his writings
Unfortunately years later was the same man led to believe that he was the sole channel of God to
give them ‘food for the proper time’.But after his death, starting from the second president of the WT, Rutherford, the efforts and goals were no more the simply provide and publishing of the ‘message’. The Society received the authority of international supervision over the ‘congregations’. These ‘Bible Students’ had to be unified in a group so as to become one people; Yes [UNITY AT ALL COSTS]. (This expression was made by the former legal counsel of the Society, Hayden C. Covington in a court trial held in Scotland, back in 1954, known as ‘the Walsh case’)
One of the beliefs that shocked me was the ‘new understanding’ in 1995 of Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46. I still remember as for years, since 1958, we studied with people the book „From Paradise lost to Paradise regained" We imagined ourselves engaged in a worldwide „separating work" based on the understanding of the WT. We were told that „after Jesus became King in heaven 1914, HE would put apart sheep from goats. And the King rests his decision on how the people treat his spiritual ‘brothers’ and how they accept the good news of the Kingdom that his spiritual brothers preach". (Page 200) Now, since 1995, we are told that this separating work has not begun as yet! The WT October 1995, page 22, says:" In other words the parable points to the FUTURE, when the Son of Man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgement will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time ‘the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one will have been clearly established"...
We have been preaching all the years along to the people, that they had to take NOW a decision, because we are living in the last days of the ‘Time of the End’, accepting God’s only organization on earth and get baptized, otherwise they would belong to the goats and be destructed at Harmaggedon! And now we hear the WT has ‘adjusted’ his understanding of this parable, as well as the generation of 1914.
I really see in this kind of mindset that has dominated and is still dominating the WT as :’ we haven’t been right, but we’ve never been wrong’ the evidence of not qualifying to be the ‘mouthpiece of God’ or ‘the chosen people’. In my last response I said that Jehovah God can have everywhere in the world people who believe in His Son Jesus Christ and are living according to the Truth of His Word.
In the book „Paul’s idea of Community", page 48, is written about the first christians:"These scattered Christians group did nor express their unity by fashioning a corporate organization, but rather through a network of personal contacts between people who regarded themselves as members of the same christian family."
As in the first century, when the Jewish people did not accept the Son of God, so it will surely be in modern day. They had found a sense of security in their religious guides and buildings, a sense of righteousness these had brought them. But they experienced an abrupt and painful awakening! I believe that we can avoid this experience in our lives, we should do like the apostles answering to the religious governing body of that time, and said:"OBEDIENCE TO GOD COMES BEFORE OBEDIENCE TO MEN." Acts 5:27-29
James
kes152

Before Christ was "exalted to the right hand of God" the nation of Israel were witnesses to the Father.
Since Christ's resurrection from the dead, "ALL authority in HEAVEN AND ON EARTH has been given to me."
Thus, Jesus was now "our Savior" although before, the Father was our ONLY Savior. Jesus became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.
Since "all authority" has been granted him, Jesus has the authority to recieve "honor," and "glory" in union with the Father. The Son "subjects himself to the One who 'subjected all things to him,' " however, we now honor the Son just as we honored the Father.
We were sent to be "witnesses of Him" for Jesus is now the ONLY one worthy to be known as a witness of Jah (the Faithful Witness). Thus, everywhere in the scriptures after Christ, all are known as witnesses of Christ as opposed to 'witnesses of the Father.' Being a witness of the Father is such a glory that only belongs to Christ.
Revelation 2:13
Acts 1:8
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 19:10
Revelation 5:12
May you have peace,
Aaron
Gopher

Hi Aaron,
You make an interesting argument that Christians are to be witnesses for Jesus.
I wonder, since one who brings honor to the Son brings honor to his Father, and you cannot approach the Father and ignore the Son.....isn't it really a matter of "semantics"? If you accurately bear witness to one, you thusly include a favorable witness about the other?
Any organization that improperly ignores either the Father or the Son has neither.
Regards,
Gopher
littleone

Sorry for not getting back to these posts earlier, but I was tied up for awhile,
James, Thank you for that interesting post. Yes, I agree, Obedience to God comes before obedience to men.
Kes152, I must agree with Gopher on this one. Jesus did say "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." but keep reading...he goes on to say:"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the holy spirit."-Matt 28:18,19 In order to immerse one in the Father's name (Jehovah-Yahweh-Yehowah) we must bear witness to him. Jesus did this all thoughout his ministry, and in order to be 'footstep followers' of his, we must also do like he did, and bear witness to the Father. All of the 'seed of Abraham' are baptized into 'Christ's death', and he died bearing witness to his father. And likewise, all the 'seed of Abraham' must die doing likewise. Jesus is our mediator between us and the Father, and that is why we pray to 'the hearer of prayer- the Father' in Jesus' name. Nevertheless how can one pray to the father if witness to him was never given? A son must honor his father, and likewise, sons of God must honor their Father by bearing witness to him. Also, we must have the both the Son and the Father, we cannot ignore one, or we don't have either.
with love,
littleone
kes152

Hey Gopher:
I wonder, since one who brings honor to the Son brings honor to his Father, and you cannot approach the Father and ignore the Son.....isn't it really a matter of "semantics"?
I asked my Lord on this one, and he said, "No, but it is a matter of knowing your 'place' in relation to me and my Father. Giving glory to the Son, glorifies my Father. Anyone who honors the Son, is honored by my Father."
He also provided this scripture in John 6:57
"Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live BECAUSE of the Father, so also he that feeds on me that one will live BECAUSE of me."
If we feed on his flesh and drink his blood, we are "living" because of him.
Littleone;
you said:
In order to immerse one in the Father's name (Jehovah-Yahweh-Yehowah) we must bear witness to him.
Do you have the scripture that says 'in order to be immersed in the name of the Father you MUST bear witness to him?'
You are correct that Jesus bore witness to the Father. This was because Jesus lived BECAUSE of that one. We however, feed on Jesus. Thus, we live BECAUSE of him.
John 6:57
He said to mention to you Acts 5:27, 40
".. and they summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop teaching on the BASIS of Jesus' name."
He said teaching on the 'basis' of his name means that EVERYTHING that someone teaches has everything to do with him. He is the whole 'core' and purpose of the teaching. He is literally the 'base' of which the teaching stems from. This is why holy spirit bore witness to him saying:
"There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."
Thus, if we want to bear witness to this 'life' and this salvation, we must bear witness to the Son. For the Son IS the "everlasting life" that was WITH the Father and has been made manifest to us.
1 John 1:2
Just so you know, I'm not saying that we should NEVER bear witness of the Father, for the Father is in union with the Son. Our testimony should 'primarily' be directed to the Son, because he is ABSOLUTELY necessary in order for ANYTHING good to occur from the Father.
Before, God spoke to his people by means of the prophets (channel of communication?). Today, he speaks to his people by means of a Son. Just like the prophets spoke the words coming from the Father, and we were 'admonished' to hear them, so the words today come directly from the Son, and we must 'admonish' all of the words he speaks to us from the heavens.
Hebrews 1:2
Hebrews 12:25
Peace to both of you,
Aaron

True Prophecy

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