Was Sin Inevitable? (page 4)

Parker

quote by wanton

P.S. if the defence of your position depends of that kind of fire power, it must be on shaky grounds.

The defense of my position? I'm only going by Watchtower and Biblical concepts. Not sure what you're getting at.

Carmichael

...why Jesus seemed to refer to the Adam and Eve story as history, along with the Apostle Paul in some of his writings and who were both Jews.

The Gospel texts were composed long after the time Jesus of Nazareth was supposed to have lived and supposed to have said the things. Both Paul and the writers of the Gospels believed in Messianic literalism: i.e., that the Messiah was a literal person who would bring the return of the David monarchy.

However, Paul and the Gospel writers believed something that the Jews did not, namely that the Hebrew Scriptures directly mentioned the Messiah in prophetic anachronisms. This is one of the main reasons why the Jews rejected Jesus' teachings and believed that he and his followers were Jewish apostates.

The first text to mention the Messiah as a person is post-Biblical, namely the Targums (where the phrase malka meshiḥa is first applied) and later elaborated in the Midrash. Take your time to do it, but you will never find any Hebrew text that prophesies about "the Messiah shall do" such and such. It just doesn't occur in the Hebrew Scriptures.

It doesn't matter what the Christians say or the Gospels or the so-called Jesus of Nazareth. They are Jewish apostates that according to Judaism twist the Hebrew Bible. You have to drop the idea of what Jesus believed and what Paul taught if you care so much about trying to comprehend a Jewish text.

You wouldn't try to understand a Catholic text through Mormon theological eyes now, would you?

In the end, I am NOT at all trying to push you to learn one way over another. What I am trying to get you to do is see that you are engaging in a pointless exercise. The text you are examining is 3,000 years old. If you really want to know what it means, then you are going to have to get to the source. But to do that, you are going to have to abandon Christian interpretations.

Are you really willing to do that? And if so, is this the place? What you need to do is let go of Watchtower views that the Bible is the text by which to govern your life. Even the Jews who have respect of the Bible don't view the Hebrew Scritures as the basis for their lives.

And no, that was all I had to say the first time.

waton

Remember this is the story of creation but within the Torah, the Law of Moses.

CarM: Why then did "Eli" not avail himself of the [future] provision of a father's prerogative to cancel the consequences of his daughter Eve's blunder? I mean, "love covers a multitude of sins"

where is the fatherly love?

thousands of years of animal sacrifices, + one perfect human, and we are still mired in "sin"

P.S. With Eve's sin avoidable, we could have had perfect woman, with undamaged female chromosomes.

well , we love our wives and Daughters, so it is as perfect as it gets, talking snake stories or not.

Carmichael

I am not here to defend or recommend the Bible. You need to go somewhere else for that.

After leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses, I returned to Judaism as most of my families are Jews. Jews don't believe the Bible is literal. I am a Reconstructionist Jew.

Traditionally, Reconstructionist don't believe in a personal God or that the Torah was divinely revealed by God.

In line with such, most Reconstructionists don't believe in a God that can foretell or foresee the future, nor is God seen as a divine being that rewards or punishes or demands sacrifices or ransoms for sins.

Like most Jews, Reconstructionists view the Adam and Eve story as lesson-bearing narrative and not as historical. I don't embrace any of the ideas I had as a Jehovah's Witness from over 20 years ago.

Carmichael

Apparently a glitch here on this line.

waton

The defense of my position? I'm only going by Watchtower and Biblical concepts

P: sorry that my flawed diction does not get my ideas across.. I was referring to the defence that God mustered against that insult to his "sovereignty " in the garden of Eden.

to prove his point God had to match a super warrior (Jesus) with billions of years of training against a youngster, (Adam) that apparently failed him. Adam in reality appreciated God's creature Eve above else)

how about an even match>? and even then god has to intervene to kill all his opponents, and will have to do it again, and again ?

Giordano

Oh Jesus......... are some of you deluded past the point of reason?

A decent religion needs to be focused on the needs of humanity. Education, good health, food and shelter and a reasonable ethical balance. We lift each other up, we make people accountable, we care for one another if their is a god in this..... He, She and/or IT has never shown up. We humans show up.

Park this BS some where else........ it's all about how we treat one another.....not some stupid god who doesn't give a crap.

Carmichael

A decent religion needs to be focused on the needs of humanity. Education, good health, food and shelter and a reasonable ethical balance. We lift each other up, we make people accountable, we care for one another if their is a god in this..... He, She and/or IT has never shown up. We humans show up.

Giordano hit the nail on the head. That's what I've been trying to say all this time.

A central teaching of Judaism is Tikkun Olam, the repair or healing of the world is humanistic in nature. It does not rely upon or expect a supernatural influence of any type.

Instead of seeing God as a supernatural influence, most Reconstructionists see God as the humanistic influences in the world today that strive for justice, peace, and practical care. Messianic hopes are classically seen to be fulfilled humanistically, not supernaturally as they are by the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Park this BS some where else...

I thought this forum was open to ideas, unlike under the religious sphere of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The Governing Body acts the same way, telling people the exact same thing about ideas. We learn intolerance we practice.

Parker

quote by Carmichael

The Gospel texts were composed long after the time Jesus of Nazareth was supposed to have lived and supposed to have said the things. Both Paul and the writers of the Gospels believed in Messianic literalism: i.e., that the Messiah was a literal person who would bring the return of the David monarchy.

The first text to mention the Messiah as a person is post-Biblical, namely the Targums (where the phrase malka meshiḥa is first applied) and later elaborated in the Midrash. Take your time to do it, but you will never find any Hebrew text that prophesies about "the Messiah shall do" such and such. It just doesn't occur in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Thank you for your post, Carmichael. Also, I've posted on forums where there were Jewish members, therefore, I am already familiar with what you stated. But recently, I was brushing up on the reasons why Jews don't agree with Christian messianic interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures(Old Testament), and I inadvertently came across this video. It threw me for a loop, but I must admit, the first half of the video made me think twice about this whole issue of Jewish vs Christian interpretation of messianic Hebrew scriptures:

Why Jewish People Didn’t Recognize Jesus as the Messiah | Faithlife Today Episode 148

In the end, I am NOT at all trying to push you to learn one way over another. What I am trying to get you to do is see that you are engaging in a pointless exercise. The text you are examining is 3,000 years old. If you really want to know what it means, then you are going to have to get to the source. But to do that, you are going to have to abandon Christian interpretations.

Carmichael, you and perhaps others misunderstand my intent in posting topics such as these. I have lurked at this forum for a very long time before I finally decided to register and post on it. Also, when doing internet searches on a Biblical or Jehovah's Witness topic, a lot of time my search results would bring me to this forum. Therefore, in addition to asking questions at this forum in order for me to better understand a topic and to get helpful feedback on it, I also view this forum as a 'teaching' forum. And like myself, I believe there are other people on the internet who are searching for answers about the Bible and about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Parker

quote by Giordano

Park this BS some where else........ it's all about how we treat one another.....not some stupid god who doesn't give a crap.

See the last paragraph of my previous post to Carmichael. However, if you disagree with that, how about we make a deal? You park your comments somewhere else besides my threads, and I won't park my comments in any of your threads.

Was Sin Inevitable?

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