In every scripture where God & Jesus appear, the Holy Spirit is always AWOL/MIA.
Probably explains the existence of Binitarians.
God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.
by BoogerMan 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Sea Breeze
What about these?
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5: 7
Early support for traditional reading of 1 John 5: 7 :
200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
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Rattigan350
F. C. Conybeare says that Matt 28:19 is not real.
This bishop writes that Matt 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 are spurious.http://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.com/2015/08/matthew-2819-and-1-john-57-spurious.html
Also here
https://www.apostolic.edu/the-truth-about-matthew-2819/
Why are all of the trinitarian support scriptures controversial? Why aren't there trinity support scriptures that are not controversial?
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Sea Breeze
Spurious?
@ Rattigan350
Wouldn't it be hard to quote a verse that was supposedly added in the Middle Ages centuries before is was supposedly added? -
Rattigan350
Relying on Matt 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 to support the trinity is like relying on Roe v Wade to support constitutional protection of abortion.
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Rattigan350
Sea Breeze, who quoted those verses?
My conclusion was that Jesus never said "baptize in the name of the father, son and holy spirit" because if he is the great teacher, why would he say something, or instruct something without explanation?
He never explained what that means. (Kind of like 'this generation' & Faithful and discreet slave)
People like to grab verses or make them up to support their positions.
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BoogerMan
@ Sea Breeze - The origins of 1 John 5:7 are widely known. The source material of the King James Version, the Textus Receptus, adds a reference to "the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost." This phrase is not found in any of the earliest manuscripts, and wasn't even in the earliest produced copies of the Textus Receptus.
As for Matthew 28:19, either the verse was 'doctored' or Luke, Peter, & Paul were seriously deficient in their writing/ baptism teaching.
(Acts 2:38) Peter said to them: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins.
(Acts 8:16) For it [the holy spirit] had not yet come upon any one of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 10:48) With that he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
(Acts 19:5) On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 22:16) Rise, get baptized, and wash your sins away by your calling on his [Jesus'] name.’
(Romans 6:3) Or do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus.
(1 Corinthians 1:12, 13) "What I mean is this, that each one of you says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·polʹlos,” “But I to Ceʹphas,” “But I to Christ.” Is the Christ divided? Paul was not executed on the stake for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
(Galatians 3:27) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eusebius Pamphili, or Eusebius of Caesarea was born about 270 A.D. and died about 340 A.D. and made eighteen citations of Matthew 28:19, - always in the following form: "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you." Only after the Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. did he start to use the 'triune' wording.
WikiPedia: “There are a number of nontrinitarian scholars who claim that the development of baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is a post-Apostolic Age interpolation and corruption and that the "Trinitarian" clause in Matthew 28:19 - “...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,” was added in the 2nd/3rd century. They cite as evidence that no record exists in the New Testament of someone being baptised with the Trinitarian formula, using literal interpretation.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_in_the_name_of_Jesus
If you can provide any scripture which mentions all 3 - outwith the two discussed - I'd like to read them.
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Sea Breeze
Sea Breeze, who quoted those verses?
Several early Christian leaders in the list I posted above, didn't you see it? How did people quote a verse that was supposedly added 700 to 1300 years later?
This is the problem for deniers to answer.
Here are over a dozen separate arguments with supporting evidence defending the genuineness and cannonicity of 1 John 5: 7 : -
Sea Breeze
@ BM
Even many Jews prior to the birth of Jesus were expecting "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16)In the Dead Sea Scroll (DSC) 11Q13 - The messiah is equated to Jehovah. It mentions his atonement and incredibly even a following period of "grace".
I believe the Essenes all became Christan, because unlike the Pharisee, their theology was much more in line with Christian themes.
The Jews that we see after the first century (and today), are mostly Pharisees and to a lesser degrree Saducees.
Ken Johnson explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4oUyM6JSys -
BoogerMan
@ Sea Breeze; 1 Tim. 3:16 says, "Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." (RSV)
When claiming that "he" is referring to God, (aka Jesus in the trinity) a very serious slander is cast at God Almighty, namely that He lied - to Moses. (Ex. 33:20) John 1:18 must be a blatant lie also.
Why didn't God simply materialise in the body of Jesus and appear to Moses?
He did it 1500 years later for the Satanic Pharisees - but not for a faithful servant?????
Not an insignificant contradiction.