BABYLON THE GREAT IS NOT FALLING ANYMORE? (NEW LIGHT FROM THE ANNUAL MEETING)

by raymond frantz 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    https://youtu.be/rsbFa_7lQV4?si=mUuXmgtlL1N1Ifad

    The Watchtower’s Babylon the Great: A Shrinking Reality?

    So this latest Annual Meeting introduced a new idea about Babylon the Great, and here is the part from Geoffrey Jackson's talk we real need to dig in and consider it's ramifications....

    So you’ve got to hand it to them; they know how to keep things interesting with their ever-evolving interpretations and, of course, those classic "adjustments" in understanding. For decades, they’ve been pounding their podiums, proclaiming that Babylon the Great—represented by the world’s religious institutions—would face imminent destruction as humanity wakes up and leaves organized religion in droves. Spoiler alert: it’s not quite going according to plan.

    Let’s backtrack a bit. For years, the narrative went like this: “Babylon the Great is falling! Look at Europe! People are leaving churches; religion is on its way out!” And yes, the statistics do show that religion is declining in some places like Europe. Churches are empty, priests are getting fewer attendees than a high school reunion, and religion’s influence seems to be on life support. But here’s where things get a little awkward for the Watchtower—turns out, this isn’t a worldwide trend. Africa, South America, and other regions? Religion is alive and thriving, folks. So much for the great exodus from Babylon.

    And while the Watchtower has been frantically waving their “Babylon is shrinking” flag, there’s another group that’s seeing numbers dwindle. Guess who? Yep, it’s the Watchtower itself. As it turns out, they’ve been losing members too, and faster than they’d like to admit. Membership growth is slowing down, congregations are consolidating, and some Kingdom Halls are being sold off. It looks like the narrative of Babylon's supposed decline might actually be more fitting for their own organization.

    But there’s more! In this latest “adjustment” to understanding—because they do love those—they’ve now subtly shifted their attention to something different. They used to say that Babylon’s demise would kickstart the Great Tribulation. The churches would collapse, people would run for their lives, and Jehovah’s Witnesses would be vindicated. But now? They’ve put a fresh coat of paint on their prophetic timeline.

    Instead of Babylon being the central target, they’re now talking about nations handing over their power to the United Nations. Yes, the same UN they’ve demonized for years as part of a corrupt system. But apparently, God’s “one thought” is now about nations surrendering their political power to the UN. It’s a convenient development. By shifting the spotlight away from Babylon’s fall and onto this new scenario, they can gloss over the fact that their predictions about organized religion’s collapse haven’t exactly materialized. Talk about a clever dodge.

    And here’s the kicker: this shift might be the first step in their strategy to soften their approach toward other Christian denominations. For an organization that once proudly labeled every other religion as the “whore of Babylon,” this is quite the change. Could it be that they’re starting to realize that publicly demanding the destruction of all other religions doesn’t exactly scream “peaceful charity”?

    Let’s be real. In today’s world, religious organizations are under more scrutiny than ever. If you’re going around calling other faiths vile names and predicting their doom, it’s a bit harder to convince governments and charity organizations that you’re a wholesome, community-driven charity that deserves financial support. Countries like the UK and Australia, where Jehovah’s Witnesses are registered as charities, aren’t too thrilled when they hear that one of their beneficiaries is rooting for the downfall of other religions. And with their stance softening, the Watchtower can now maintain their charitable status without that pesky reputation of being a “cult.”

    But there’s another layer to this. By distancing themselves from their old "us versus them" mentality, they may be taking a step toward aligning, at least partially, with the Ecumenical Movement.The Ecumenical movement is this initiative started by the Catholic Church aimed at promoting unity and cooperation among different denominations and churches worldwide.They have been promoting this movement for decades ,

    the same movement the Watchtower historically criticized. Imagine that! An organization that once prided itself on being staunchly separate from “Christendom” is now, whether intentionally or not, warming up to the idea of finding common ground with other Christian groups. Oh, how the times are changing.

    Now, let’s break this down. Why would the Watchtower want to position themselves in a less extreme light? Well, for starters, they don’t want to look like a group of doomsday fanatics. Being perceived as a radical, isolationist group doesn’t help when you’re trying to attract new converts or maintain your status as a tax-exempt charity. Plus, by softening their stance, they might actually find it easier to gain acceptance in countries where they’re currently viewed with suspicion.

    The shift in their narrative also serves as a practical move to keep their members engaged. Think about it: if they kept banging on about Babylon the Great falling while churches in various parts of the world continued to thrive, they’d lose credibility faster. Members might start questioning the validity of their prophecies—can’t have that! So, by shifting their attention to a more “political” angle with the UN, they can keep the urgency alive without having to explain why the churches aren’t crumbling as fast as they predicted.

    But let’s not forget, this shift also opens the door to something much bigger: financial survival. If they appear more open and less antagonistic toward other religions, they might have an easier time presenting themselves as a legitimate religious organization worthy of funding and support. And by not burning bridges with other Christian groups, they can avoid being labeled as a hostile fringe movement. It’s all about positioning,guys.

    So, what does all this mean for the Watchtower’s future? Well, if they keep moving in this direction, we might see a kinder, gentler organization—at least on the surface. The rhetoric of “Babylon the Great” might take a backseat, and we might hear more about unity and cooperation. They could even start framing their mission as one of fostering global peace and understanding (with their own unique twist, of course). It’s a PR dream come true!

    But, if they do take this softer approach, will their members be on board? After all, they’ve been conditioned for years to see the world through an “us versus them” lens. Will they accept a narrative that paints other religions not as enemies, but as groups who just need to be led in the right direction? It’s a risky move, but it might be the only way forward for an organization that’s seeing its influence wane and its membership shrink.

    In the end, the Watchtower’s latest “adjustment” may be less about prophetic accuracy and more about adapting to a world where being the loudest voice in the room doesn’t always win you friends—or funding. Whether they’re softening their stance for financial reasons, strategic growth, or simply to avoid looking like the “crazy cult,” one thing’s for sure: the real dwindling numbers might not be Babylon the Great’s but their own. And in this game of religious survival, it looks like they’re willing to play a little nicer to stay afloat

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    For an interesting overview of the direction organised religion is going, this is good :

    https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/12/21/key-findings-from-the-global-religious-futures-project/

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

    Problem is, mainstreaming inevitably neuters all the the things the Org holds up as hard proof they alone have the Truth.

    Once that’s gone, where’s the incentive to stay?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    In principle, according to the JW interpretation, "Great Babylon" means all "false religions", that is, everyone else besides them, but to put it mildly, they do not deal with all "false religions" to the same extent.

    The question is why the Watchtower does not polemize nearly as much about Islam or the Jews? For example, I have seen in many Watchtower publications that the destruction of "Babylon the Great" is illustrated with destroyed churches, but I have never once seen in the Watchtower a mosque or synagogue destroyed by a meteor shower at Armageddon in the picture. What is the reason for this? Perhaps they know that they are considered a protected group in the woke-PC world order, and they faithfully adhere to this?

    So what makes them "brave" if they so slavishly fit into the mainstream narrative and abide by what is allowed to be said?

    Why do they only polemicize with mainstream Christianity, especially Catholicism? Perhaps Hinduism or African nature worshipers are not "false religions"? Or are they less bad than Catholicism?

    Or when it comes to the wrongdoings of the "false religion", it is always only about things from many hundreds of years ago, mostly Catholic, and at the same time, there is never a mention of, for example, Islamic terrorism. The real question is, what is the actual threat to the freedom of religion nowadays? The Inquisition or the Caliphate?

  • liam
    liam
    But, if they do take this softer approach, will their members be on board? After all, they’ve been conditioned for years to see the world through an “us versus them” lens.

    Only the boomers have been conditioned to see the world through an us versus them lens. Most of the hard core boomers will be gone in the next 15 years.

    All the young jws have already been taught that all members of all religions can repent at the very last minute of the Great Tribulation and be saved because Jehovah wants everyone to be saved including all the members from all religions. That was in last year's annual meeting.

    The soft approach has already been in place for years, guess you just haven't seen it because you don't attend Kingdom Hall meetings anymore.

    You can greet disfellowshipped people, men can wear beards, women pants, no one should judge their brother or sister if they are dating an unbeliever, you can go to College, elders are seeking disfellowshipped ones to see if they want to be reinstated and if so they will be reinstated quickly, parents of Children who have committed fornication will be allowed to help them instead of instant judicial committee. Members don't have to count time anymore. And there's a lot more that I can't remember.

    Anyone here late 50s and up don't realize the Watchtower has totally changed from when you were in. No one talks anymore about not growing old in this system, not one talks about Babylon the Great drying up like the waters of Babylon, no young one talks that we are living in the last days.

    It's only congregations where the entire body of elders are boomers, and most of the publishers are over 50 that are fighting hard to keep the old stance on these new changes. These old ones don't even know of all the changes that have happened in the past two or three years. They still call the organization; "MOTHER"

    Once they are gone, every JW member will be the NEW US!.........Welcome to the Real!

  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim

    I often wondered that too..

    Take away that us vs. them mentality,,, whats left????

    No non JW friends,, that isolation,, insular mindset is gone????

    That "" uniqueness"" ,,, gone!!

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    aqwsed12345:

    In principle, according to the JW interpretation, "Great Babylon" means all "false religions", that is, everyone else besides them, but to put it mildly, they do not deal with all "false religions" to the same extent.

    The question is why the Watchtower does not polemize nearly as much about Islam or the Jews? For example, I have seen in many Watchtower publications that the destruction of "Babylon the Great" is illustrated with destroyed churches, but I have never once seen in the Watchtower a mosque or synagogue destroyed by a meteor shower at Armageddon in the picture. What is the reason for this? [...]

    Why do they only polemicize with mainstream Christianity, especially Catholicism? Perhaps Hinduism or African nature worshipers are not "false religions"? Or are they less bad than Catholicism?


    Or when it comes to the wrongdoings of the "false religion", it is always only about things from many hundreds of years ago, mostly Catholic, and at the same time, there is never a mention of, for example, Islamic terrorism.

    Good point! Although I have noticed the WTS had already toned down their harsh Catholic rhetoric compared to decades earlier pre-2000.

  • LongHairGal
    LongHairGal

    RAYMOND FRANTZ:

    The reason why ‘Babylon the Great’ is no longer falling is because the JWs are becoming more and more like it!

    LIAM:

    I am a longtime ‘Fader’ and I don’t feel one ounce of pity for the ‘hard core Boomers’ that you describe. These are the people who knocked me years ago because I worked full-time and didn’t pioneer.. I’m Glad I never listened.. They can hang on desperately all they want but the old JW religion is gone.. I still think this religion is eventually going online.

  • Ultimate Axiom
    Ultimate Axiom

    When I was a Witness back in the 1970s Babylon the Great had already fallen. It fell in 1919. Can anyone cite references to when that changed to being a future event?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    I miss the good old days when Christians were prophetically identified as manure on the surface of the ground. Who will they hate now to fuel their vital life-saving work?


    "And the slain of the LORD [Jehovah] shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.” (Jer. 25:29, 33) Christendom’s name does not exempt her but only identifies her as the target of God’s anger. - w53 11/1 pp. 649-652

    "they shall be dung upon the ground."

    Good 'ole Christian dung. The WT just doesn't sling sh*t like they used to. Probably why their church is declining.


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