I have not known any Witnesses who were genuinely antisemetic, but I had sometimes heard (not recently, but years ago) prejudicial remarks made out of ignorance. There was a jaw dropping moment in the ministry once, when at a door, I was with a sister who was relating to the householder how she felt she had been overcharged in a business dealing. She said "Yeah, he really tried to Jew me!". I don't remember if the householder reacted, but I was embarrassed and appalled. I heard another older person in the Hall also use that phrase once.
My Beliefs After Leaving the Watchtower
by KalebOutWest 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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KalebOutWest
Q: Are there some elements of JW culture shared with Jewish culture? For instance, is the elder arrangement and how brothers view "appointed men" in the org very similar to how Jews revere their leaders?
Judaism, as you are probably catching on, is more of a culture with religious elements than a religion. But it is not so easy to define (or dismiss) Watchtower religion as a culture in the same way because it is not a civilization. Judaism has four unique languages (two forms of Hebrew, Ladino, and Aramaic) and the JW religious community had no languages unique to its religion. Judaism and Israel are very much synonymous. Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a political country. We Jews have cultural dishes, create art, music, unique forms of dress, and of course celebrate holidays--something Jehovah's Witnesses are known to avoid like the plague.
On top of that, our members are related by DNA, not belief. We are a tribe of blood relatives. Jehovah's Witnesses call one another "brother" and "sister" but will disfellowship--sorry--remove a member who no longer simply believes or practices the doctrines (so much for being a "sister" or "brother"). You have to join the JW religion. Judaism, well, you don't have to practice the religion, but you are stuck a Jew whether you like it or not because that is what you were born.
As for Jehovah's Witnesses and their elder arrangement, and how does this compare with the rabbi among the Jews...
The word rabbi means "my teacher" or "my master," and the word "elder" comes from the Greek word presbuteros as used in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3. The term is the Greek word for a Jewish a man who sat on a beit din. This was (and still is) a panel that precides over serious matters for a Jewish community as well as sits before an individual who is presenting themselves for conversion. This panel is usually made up of rabbis.
But that word "rabbi" does not mean "elder." It is more similar to the English term "my mentor" as in "not your mentor but my mentor." I learned two trades growing up, one of which required an old-fashioned type of apprenticeship program. You literally had to have a hands-on mentor teach you the trade or you could not learn how to do what you want to do. Each person learning got a specific mentor, but you had to be picked by someone and you had to earn your spot. If you did not get picked because you did not show that you had "the stuff" to enter the program, then too bad. Then once you got picked, that mentor taught you. Some mentors were just far better than others, and this meant some people would end up being far better at the trade than others in the end. You were proud of your mentor (and the mentor their student). You would say: "That is MY mentor."
That is what "rabbi" means. They are an institution for the Jewish community. They can be and generally are leaders. But they are often teachers and guides in life, passing on what it means to be Jewish, not just in the faith, to you and your community.
Generally speaking, nothing but the law of the land stops the average Jew from officiating at weddings, leading services, and performing any other rituals. So rabbis are not like elders in these matters. They do not necessarily take the lead in worship. Any Jew may do so.
Rabbis can however act more like leaders in some denominations as opposed to others and in Israel as opposed to in America. In Israel, Jews are basically divided into two groups: religious and secular, whereas in the United States Jews live in a spectrum of beliefs and practices. The rabbis in the US range from leaders to people who are equal with lay persons. Whereas in Israel the divide tends to make most of the rabbinate either part of the governmental arm or at least involved with the politics (though there are few representatives of denominations similar to what we have in the West), the US rabbis can often be viewed as leaders mainly because in the West people judge everything through Christian tropes or motifs (i.e., Christian priests, elders, pastors=leaders and thus Jewish rabbis must be leaders too).
There have been some problems with a few rabbinical leaders who have created movements that have developed into cult-like denominations in Judaism. Some of these leaders have been accused of wielding power and being abusive. Many of their stories have made the news and some have been recreated in film and television stories.
How much this is like (or unlike) the elder arrangment of the Jehovah's WItnesses, well, you will have to determine yourself. There are similarities and vast differences. There could be more I am sure or a far greater divide the more information I add. But the same could be said about any group of leaders, secular or religious. The Scout Leaders of the Boy Scouts of America are, for example, very similar to the priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church in their CSA history.
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Riley
When I was in , I really grew to dislike eschatology. Once I realized, it was nothing but opinion that really required leaps and assumptions, it really didn't mean much to me. Considering the WTS really build core theology around it, I couldn't do it anymore.
Then Covid hit and I realized that evangelical Christians are generally assholes too. Everyone was a civil rights expert, or scientist or vaccines were the mark of the beast................it was all just as stupid as what I just came from. Trump just cut off foreign aid for poor nations today. This is who we got behind for FFS.
The scary thing for me is the only religious people I found were great people are Mormons. Not discounting the book of Mormon is a work of fiction.
I have no idea what I believe anymore.
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Ron.W.
I have no idea what I believe anymore..
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That pretty much sums me up too - I find it much easier to think about what I don't believe for some reason..
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KalebOutWest
That pretty much sums me up too - I find it much easier to think about what I don't believe for some reason.
I notice that tends to be the earmark of many exJWs. I think it's what the Watchtower experience does to members.
It is a constant indoctrination machine. I use to tell my family that I found the Witness experience "scholastic" as opposed to "spiritual." It was all "study from books," and "discuss" what you "underlined" and "listen" to "hours" of boring blather. There was no real worship or ritual or mystical experience. It was all so dry.
So when I left I kept measuring myself for a long while by what I read, studied, and could define...or as you put it what I "disagreed" with, so to speak.
But that is the system of Watchtower. It's a measuring stick, like a little inner bug checking in on whether we believe or not or what that consists of.
So outside it is quite normal to sense the disconnect. Instead of measuring what you are by what what you believe, the little bug measures you now by what you don't.
That eventually gives way to positives. It can take longer for some than others. But we all are made up of strong convictions that motivate us. They don't have to be theistic. You can be fine without a religious belief, but you will learn that you cannot and will not go through life being meaningless. Eventually you will be someone made up of what you do believe more than things that you don't again--it just doesn't have to ever include religious dogma.
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blondie
I have found that my beliefs have changed a great deal in regard to what the WTS has taught and is teaching. It takes awhile to wash out those WT ideas, but it is important to replace them with something good and positive and healing. Reflection and carefully looking without the eyes of indoctrination. (23 years physically out, not including 5 years physically in but mentally out.)
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KalebOutWest
Blondie, that sounds so extraordinary! "Replace them with something good and positive and healing." I almost left that part out!
We can still be people of conviction and conscientious choice after leaving the Watchtower, just like you mention. It is one of the greatest lies of the Governing Body that outside of the realm of the JW world we will find a wasteland of hopelessness, emptiness and dispair, and come crawling back once we have "learned our lesson." Careful self-reflection is truly a powerful means to reverse that word you used in your post: "indoctrination."
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Anony Mous
The JW theology is definitely anti-Semitic, or at least it was when I was young. They kind of went away from the hardcore beliefs, but the early WT was definitely anti-Jewish (look up Rutherford’s Declaration of Facts or the Life book).
The old publications had sentences as late as 1946 that blamed Jews for the Holocaust (for rejecting Christ), that was later revised in the 1950s re-releases of Watchtower but still many JWs today believe this and other anti-Semitic tropes.
Even today, their website says that there is no scriptural support for political Zionism, but we are completely neutral on the subject (after saying it is against scripture). As with all the other double speak, there is a message there for JWs and for the world, and they’re different. There is another article on JW.org that basically says they are ‘the chosen people’ and thus “spiritually” JWs are the real Jews because they rejected Jesus. This is both an anti-Semitic trope and is similar to Black Hebrew movement that is an anti-Semitic group that claims black people are the real Jews and therefore modern Jews have no claims to either heritage or land. In modern times, JW don’t go quite that far in writing, but it seems implied.
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KalebOutWest
Anony Mous,
You may be right. I was speaking in generalities, such as how Jews officially view certain groups.
I agree that Rutherford said some antisemitic statements. My aunt set me up to study with an elder who said nothing but horrible antisemitic statements, constantly.
Of course that elder who studied with me was a product of being raised in a Fundamentalist church that taught him since he was a boy that the Jews killed Jesus, etc., etc. He didn't think he needed to check some of his views at the door upon entering the Watchtower (and no one asked him upon become a JW if he had incorrect views about Jews). When he learned I was a Jew, this sort of disgusting speech from his "Free Spirit Chapel Bible Church" spilled forth from his mouth like vomit.
Rutherford and the Bible Students of his era published some horrible material not only about Jews but people who weren't white Americans. I am sure this too was also product more than critical theology. It was ignorance mixed with emotional response.
I am not making excuses for either Rutherford and his contemporaries or that elder who studied with me. Neither, however, puts the Jehovah's Witnesses as a group on the antisemitic list anymore than the fact that child molesters in their midst means everyone in that religion is involved in CSA. My aunt sure wasn't.
Now, regarding "the Chosen:" Even Orthodox Jews do not believe that because they were "chosen by God" that this means that Jews are anymore God's people than everyone else is. That is a JW misinterpretation of what Jews believe.
The Talmud explains that God views non-Jews as God's people just as much as the Jews. (Tractate Megillah 10b) The "chosen" in Chosen People refers to the duty to observe the Torah and serve as an example of what happens when one is in covenant with God as a result. It doesn't mean one has the one true religion or is in position of the only way to God.
Thus other religions and people are free to claim what they wish. It is not antisemitic to do so.
Some Black Hebrew Israelites have been called antisemitic and racist by the ADL. But not all of them are like this. I have spoken to some. But tread lightly. Since I am a Jew of color (Sephardic) they have been far more open to discussion with me perhaps than with others.
They have a unique combination of Christian and Jewish beliefs. They generally are not against all Ashkenazi (white) Jews as much as the fact that people in the West tend to think that all Jews are Ashkenazi. People tend to forget that many if not most Jews are of color if not quite diversified as to common stereotype. While I cannot say that I agree with all they believe, not all of them are the same when it comes to convictions.
Again in the end, I am not the final judge. Jews in general do not place Jehovah's Witnesses as a group on the antisemitic list as they are definitely not involved in hateful rhetoric against the Jews. Jews view the Bible Students who went to the camps as heroic. Your conclusions are your conclusions.
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ukpimo
I'm now beginning to think after careful evaluation that this post is simply a tactic to gain extra sympathy for Jews and potential converts, without undue pressure so that it gives the impression that Jews are far more endearing than other faiths. Now I'm not completely against Jewish culture or faith, but I can sense where this thread is going. Thank you for your time, however I will leave this thread and I hope any honest questioning individual does the same.