Pre-Nicene christians and the trinity

by joey jojo 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @Sea Breeze: this is about the historical record, not the theology. And your argument rejects the existence of the soul separate from the body, the fact Jesus said he was “going to” hell for 3 days etc. It is a WTBTS question that only arises if you reject a spirit Jesus (whether that is triune is irrelevant to that argument). WTBTS rejects Jesus and makes him an angel that formed a body and if he had no soul and there is no hell, then you are kind of stuck after he dies.

    @Earnesst and @aqqswad: I said Arianism was spread after his death and morphed into anti-trinitarianism under Justin the Apostate (wonder why he’s called that?), but that was long after the Nicene Christianity was established and Arian himself had died, 6th and 7th century Arianism is completely different and does reject the trinity, the divinity of Christ etc.

    The claim was that Arian himself rejected the trinity and that this was discussed under the First Council of Nicaea, the Nicene Christians knew that Arian’s teaching would lead to the outright rejection of the trinity and deity of Christ, replacing it with a pagan Roman polytheism and that is what they wrote about the ideas of Arian, but this was not the point of discussion at the Council, the point of the Council was whether the trinitarian God was a singular deity made of the same substance or whether there was an eternal God was of similar substance to the trinitarian God, which Arian held the first existed separate and then created (finite) the other parts to become the trinitarian God. It sounds weird to us, but trying to merge pagan ideas such as polytheism into Christianity was common at that time to attract other groups and people.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Anony Mous,

    I read your post twice above and cannoit understqand your point. Please clarify.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    It was like attendees at a Star Wars convention voting which episode was the best. Oh, and agreeing that Star Wars is way better than Star Trek and Dr. Who.

  • Touchofgrey
    Touchofgrey

    https://godhasason.com/pagan-trinities

    Funny how the pagans came up with the trinity beliefs first well before the Christians. So it's not a new belief the Christian just copied their pagan cousins.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Jesus’ ability to resurrect himself is indeed a demonstration of his deity. The Resurrection is a Trinitarian act: the Father raised the Son (Acts 2:24), the Son raised himself (John 10:17–18), and the Spirit was also involved in the act (Romans 8:11). This reflects the unity of will and essence in the Trinity. Nicene theology affirms that Jesus, being fully God and fully man, acted in concert with the Father and the Spirit. His declaration in John 10:17–18 does not contradict this but rather reveals the intimate cooperation and shared essence of the Trinity.

    The claim that Arianism morphed into anti-Trinitarianism much later and that early Arianism rejected Christ’s divinity outright is misleading, The First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD convened to address the Arian controversy, specifically whether Jesus Christ was of the "same substance" (homoousios) as the Father or merely "similar substance" (homoiousios). Arius taught that the Son was created and, therefore, not co-eternal with the Father, which undermined his full divinity. The assertion that Arian theology led to pagan Roman polytheism is baseless. Arians did not advocate for polytheism; rather, they diminished Christ’s divinity, which is a different theological error. The Council of Nicaea affirmed Christ’s divinity to protect monotheism, as denying Jesus' co-eternity and consubstantiality with the Father would fracture the unity of God.

    The Council of Nicaea was not an arbitrary "vote" like fans debating which Star Wars episode is best. It was a gathering of bishops from across Christendom to preserve the apostolic faith in the face of theological division. The homoousios formula was not a novelty but a clarification of what the Church had always believed: that Jesus Christ is fully God, co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father. The claim that the Council was simply an exercise in "agreeing Star Wars is better than Star Trek" ignores the profound theological and pastoral concerns that drove the early Church Fathers to preserve Christian orthodoxy. This analogy belittles centuries of theological reflection and the effort to safeguard Christian truth against heresy.

    The suggestion that the Trinity was "borrowed" from pagan sources is a recycled and widely debunked claim. The doctrine of the Trinity is grounded in divine revelation, not syncretism with pagan ideas. The Old Testament reveals a monotheistic God, while the New Testament clarifies the relationships between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (e.g., Matthew 28:19, John 1:1–14, 2 Corinthians 13:14). Early Christians wrestled with these truths to articulate the mystery of God’s triune nature, not to adopt pagan polytheistic concepts. Pagan triads, such as those in Egyptian or Babylonian religions, represent separate gods who share a loose association. The Christian Trinity, by contrast, consists of three persons in one Godhead, co-equal and co-eternal, sharing the same divine essence. This is fundamentally different from pagan polytheism.

    While later anti-Trinitarian movements (e.g., Socinianism, Jehovah’s Witness theology) share similarities with Arianism, these are distinct developments. Arianism’s core error was its denial of Christ’s co-eternity with the Father, whereas later movements often deny the deity of Christ altogether.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Funny how the pagans came up with the trinity beliefs first well before the Christians. So it's not a new belief the Christian just copied their pagan cousins.

    Touchofgrey....can't the same be said for everything? God having sons, some of whom were thought to have walked on earth, for example.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Touchofgrey

    Some resources for you:

    The pagan triads listed (e.g., Osiris, Horus, Isis; Zeus, Apollo, Athena) are collections of three distinct deities, often grouped together due to familial relationships, shared attributes, or functional roles. These triads do not represent a single, unified Godhead, as in Christian theology, where the Trinity is one God in three co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). In contrast, pagan triads are polytheistic and lack the ontological unity that defines the Christian Trinity. For example Osiris, Horus, and Isis are three separate deities with individual roles and functions in Egyptian mythology. There is no claim of unity or shared essence among them. This contrasts sharply with the Christian doctrine, which insists on a single divine essence shared among the three persons.

    The claim that Christians "copied" pagan trinities is an example of a post hoc fallacy—assuming that because pagan religions had triadic deities first, the Christian Trinity must have been derived from them. Correlation does not imply causation. Many human cultures independently arrived at the idea of groupings of three, as the number three often symbolizes completeness or balance, but this does not establish a causal connection. Even if there are superficial parallels (e.g., groups of three), these do not imply doctrinal borrowing. The Christian Trinity arises from divine revelation and is deeply rooted in Jewish monotheism, which strictly opposed pagan polytheism.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is derived from Scripture, not external sources. The Old Testament hints at plurality within God's unity (e.g., Genesis 1:26; Isaiah 48:16), and the New Testament makes it explicit (e.g., Matthew 28:19; John 1:1-14; 2 Corinthians 13:14). While the formal articulation of the Trinity occurred at councils such as Nicaea (325 AD) and Constantinople (381 AD), this was not the “invention” of a new doctrine but the clarification and defense of what the Church had always believed. The apostles' writings already affirm Christ's divinity (e.g., John 20:28; Philippians 2:6-11) and the Holy Spirit's personhood (e.g., Acts 5:3-4).

    The claim that the apostles did not subscribe to the Trinity is false. While the term "Trinity" does not appear in the New Testament, the concept is present. Jesus explicitly identifies Himself with the Father (John 10:30) and promises the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). The baptismal formula (Matthew 28:19) invokes the three persons of the Godhead.

    Early Christian writers like Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus (2nd century) affirmed the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, laying the groundwork for the later Trinitarian formulations. The Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople did not invent the Trinity but responded to heresies (e.g., Arianism) by affirming and clarifying the Church’s belief. The Trinity was implicit in Christian worship and theology from the beginning, as seen in early creeds and doxologies.

    The claim that the Babylonians worshipped a Trinity of Venus, the moon, and the sun is misleading. While Babylonian religion included celestial worship, it did not describe these as three persons of a single divine essence. Instead, they represented distinct celestial bodies.

    Zeus, Athena, and Apollo are part of a vast pantheon with no unity of essence. The notion that they "agree in one" is an invention with no historical basis.

    Jupiter, Mercury, and Venus were local adaptations of Roman gods, again illustrating polytheistic worship rather than a monotheistic tri-unity.

    The argument that Christian doctrines, such as the Trinity, were "borrowed" from earlier pagan religions often relies on identifying superficial similarities between Christian beliefs and elements of pagan mythology. This approach, epitomized by Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons, assumes without sufficient evidence that any resemblance automatically implies direct influence or "adoption". While this claim may appear persuasive at first glance, it is fundamentally flawed because it commits the genetic fallacy.

    The genetic fallacy occurs when someone argues that the origin or source of an idea determines its truth or validity. In essence, the fallacy attempts to dismiss or discredit a belief based on its alleged origin rather than addressing the belief itself on its merits. For example, saying that a moral principle is invalid simply because it was first articulated by a flawed individual is a clear example of the genetic fallacy.

    In the case of the "borrowed from paganism" argument, the fallacy lies in claiming that because some pagan religions included triads or other superficially similar concepts, Christian beliefs about the Trinity must be unoriginal, false, or derivative. This reasoning sidesteps the theological, historical, and scriptural basis of Christian doctrines and instead dismisses them purely based on alleged parallels.

    Identifying similarities between two belief systems does not prove that one actually influenced the other. Human cultures often develop similar ideas independently due to shared human experiences and reasoning. For example, the concept of a divine triad in pagan religions often reflects attempts to organize their pantheons into groups for philosophical or symbolic reasons, which differ fundamentally from the Christian Trinity as a revealed doctrine.

    The argument frequently overlooks significant theological differences between the Christian Trinity and pagan triads. Pagan triads often represent three separate gods with distinct roles, while the Christian Trinity asserts one God in three consubstantial persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The Christian Trinity is uniquely monotheistic, grounded in scriptural revelation, and distinct from the polytheistic frameworks of pagan triads.

    The claim of direct "borrowing" lacks historical evidence. The early Church Fathers explicitly rejected pagan practices and beliefs, frequently critiquing them as incompatible with Christian theology. If the Trinity were merely an adaptation of a pagan concept, one would expect more explicit acknowledgment or controversy about such “borrowing” in early Christian writings, but no such evidence exists.

    Hislop's method exemplifies a predetermined agenda: to portray Christianity as corrupted by paganism. By starting with the assumption that "borrowing" occurred, he interprets every similarity as proof of his thesis, ignoring alternative explanations and evidence that contradict his conclusions.

    The claim that "historians of church dogma agree the Trinity was not part of the first-century church" is false and misrepresents scholarship. While the precise terminology developed later, the belief in the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was integral to early Christianity.

    So the argument that Christianity borrowed the Trinity from pagan sources collapses under scrutiny. The pagan triads cited are fundamentally different in nature, purpose, and theology from the Christian Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is uniquely Christian, rooted in divine revelation, and deeply anchored in Scripture and the apostolic faith. Pagan trinities reflect human speculation and polytheism, while the Christian Trinity reveals the mystery of the one true God in three persons.

    The "borrowed from paganism" argument is an oversimplification that fails to engage with the substantive theological, historical, and philosophical foundations of Christian doctrines like the Trinity. By committing the genetic fallacy, this argument distracts from the real questions of whether a belief is true or well-founded. Superficial similarities between Christianity and pagan religions do not prove borrowing, and the unique, revealed nature of Christian theology stands as evidence against such claims.

  • Touchofgrey
    Touchofgrey

    Peacefulpete

    Absolutely,

    While people wear god glasses they will fail to recognize that fact ,once you take the god glasses off it's so obvious ,hopefully someone will take them off and see that the bible is a book of fiction but interesting how it evolved to what we have today.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Sea Breeze : Early Christian leaders wrote thousands of pages in letters to one another combatting heretics.

    Did you know it was not only "orthodox" christians that wrote about heretics. There were Gnostic heresiologies of which we have some record from Nag Hammadi, such as the Tripartate Tractate and the Testimony of Truth. No doubt Arius and others also described those they believed were distorting scripture as heretics, but unfortunately everything they wrote was burned. So, in this period, Christians of a variety of persuasions made use of the notion of heresy and used it to discredit their opponents in hopes of staking out a secure, enforced and recognised claim to orthodoxy. The fact that the works of Justin, Irenaeus, Hegesippus et. al. survived reflects more on whether or not they could be accommodated with the Athanasian faction at Nicaea than any scriptural truths.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Yes, Earnest, and as well as burning and suppressing earlier works that didn’t align with later Nicene theology, another tactic was to rewrite earlier works to make them appear more orthodox Trinitarian. Rufinus, for example, rewrote works by Origen to temper his subordinationist theology to an extent that in many instances it is difficult to know where later orthodox statements have been interpolated in Origen’s work, or where indeed statements or passages inconvenient for later Nicene theology have been removed altogether.

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