Origin of Life

by cofty 405 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  cofty

  The watchtower's doctrine of spirit and soul make it theologically impossible for scientists to invent life in the lab.

  the thread is based on a false premise.

  Believers in this forum have objected many times that the origin of life poses an impossible barrier to a purely naturalistic view of life. I attempted to start a conversation about that. It is not based on any false premise. Even if you are right about the WT view - you're not - it in no way invalidates the topic.

  You have made so many obtuse statements in this thread in a childish and arrogant attempt to shut down conversation. I stand by my original statement that you are a troll.
• 

  The Rebel

  I don't think slim is a troll.

  Admittadly,I would add in my opinion there are very few people, who have thoughts in their head like slim. But I felt he raised some valid questions. So It's a shame the thread became ugly, and what should have been an interesting debate, became a painstaking process to follow, which is why I am out of here.
• 

  The Rebel

  OK, I am not out of here.

  In my opinion Slim is one of the few posters who can openly say his not happy with Coftys logic, and defend himself, with " reasonable" arguments. However in my opinion Slim and Cofty will never take each other's points of view on board. However I think Cofty cuts a very hard level of logic to refute, and sometimes Slims, simply audacious comments if honest and sincere, do challenge and create what could be an interesting debate.

  Anyway we all want the same thing from a thread, and that's not tiresome repetitive name calling, but informative questions, rightly asked/ answered to create a great thread and challenge our thinking. So I don't think a thread should ever become fickle with questions and opposing viewpoints. People who change their viewpoint too quickly and without thought are those that convert and become Jehovers Witnesses.
• 

  cofty

  I don't think slim is a troll

  I do

  I felt he raised some valid questions

  He made deliberately obtuse statements and then ignored all answers,

  It's a shame the thread became ugly, and what should have been an interesting debate,

  That was his intention.

  and defend himself, with " reasonable" arguments

  He has not made a single reasonable argument in this thread that was not predicated on lying about the intention of the OP

  Slims, simply audacious comments if honest and sincere, do challenge and create what could be an interesting debate

  Not honest or sincere. His intention is to trash not challenge. You could copy-paste his first comment in this thread into any one of hundreds of different threads. It is generic bullshit with no connection to the actual topic.

  Believers love him for it. Most of them don't have a clue what he is on about but it saves them having to think.

  informative questions, rightly asked/ answered to create a great thread and challenge our thinking.

  It was an excellent question. SBF made sure no sensible conversation on the actual topic was possible. It is his MO. Another thread trashed. SBF feeling smug. Mission accomplished.
• 

  Xanthippe

  What is the "spirit" the returns to god at death according to the Watchtower?

  I thought JWs said this refers to the belief that the only hope for a resurrection of an individual lies with Jehovah. That he keeps in his memory the personality and memories of the individual so that he can bring him back to life. I remember they were very keen to ensure that nobody interpret this as a belief in a spirit or soul being immortal and going to heaven but the person is 'asleep' awaiting the resurrection.

  I do remember they said God created Adam and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life which refers to some kind of animating force that only comes from God. Perhaps this is what cofty is remembering. They used Ancient Greek pneuma, breath of life, I remember. Which is confusing because Judaism and Christianity use this word to describe the soul or spirit but JWs are adamant it doesn't mean that.

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneuma

  How to untangle what they believe when their ideas are so confused!
  
  
  
• 

  cofty

  I do remember they said God created Adam and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life which refers to some kind of animating force that only comes from God

  Yes that is what I said.

  Spirit pneuma is impersonal life-force. Soul nephesh is the living being.

  Life-force/spirit comes only from god therefore scientists cannot make life. Satan cannot make life.

  Euthanasia is always wrong. Very basic JW theology.
  
• 

  The Rebel

  Cofty, your challenges to Slims comments fail to answer me why you say Slim is a troll?

  In my opinion Slim has posted over 9000 times, and of course with over 9000 posts he can't be infallible, but those posts indicate to me a poster whose thinking has a different preference for logic than you. Anyway I don't think Slim is a troll, but like us I think he has found a place where people, who also like us have developed a certain compulsive habit to return regularly to voice our sincere opinion.

  So why is Slim a troll? Because if I understand your definition of a troll, then the parallel figure with opposing viewpoints would make you and I also trolls?
• 

  Xanthippe

  Spirit pneuma is impersonal life-force. Soul nephesh is the living being.

  Ah yes JWs separate soul and spirit. I remember now. They need to prove the Bible isn't talking about immortality but eternal life on Earth so they separate the two words, soul is the whole person and spirit is the life-force. I may be wrong but I don't think any other Christian religion does that.
  I suppose this affects how theists would answer the op because if they're not JWs they probably see the spirit/ soul being the part that survives death and goes to heaven rather than being the life force that God put into cells and cannot be replicated by scientists.

  But then do they believe the life force, the élan vital, the 'ghost in the machine' is passed on from parent to child and originated with God putting it into Adam and Eve? I don't know not having attended a church after leaving the JWs.
• 

  konceptual99

  I enjoy both Cofty and Slims' posts.

  Cofty's posts over the years have been instrumental in helping me develop critical thinking skills and see how the scientific method has consistently answered many, many questions about the universe and world around us. Regardless of how you read his posts he overwhelmingly refers to well researched, peer reviewed and well accepted material that presents empirical data to support hypothesis and theory.

  SBF (IMHO) takes a more philosophical approach to things. Over the time I have been here there have been many encounters where SBF will, essentially, play devil's advocate. He'll extend the conversation beyond the pure scientific method to include more esoteric and abstract thinking.

  From my own perspective sometimes SBF raises interesting points and invites thinking out of the box however other times the comments come across as being esoteric, even obtuse, just for the sake of being so. Sometimes this seems to raise strawman arguments. I would also say that it seems as soon as Cofty posts then SBF will post some philosophically based rebuttal. Sometimes this leads to the conversation simply being derailed.

  I can see why Cofty would take this as trolling. On the other hand I think that SBF is one of the few posters on here that can argue for a different but still non-theistically based position. It's a shame that the engagement often leads nowhere.
• 

  The Rebel

  Xanthippe : " Ah yes JWs separate spirit and soul"

  The Rebel: The O.P is " Origin of Life" but the question is raised on a ex JWs site, and I think comparatively few exiting JWs, have thought any deeper on the " Origin of Life" than watchtower literature. My point is for many, you leave the organisation on reasons of concience,then you scrabble to maintain your family connections, and then you get bewildered by the " Origin of Life."

  In my opinion when a person has escaped that mental darkness, surely we can forgive or at least tolerate that for all people the understanding of universal reality will take time? So why become so antagonized by opposing viewpoints? If a point is well made with humility, and timidly,it doesn't need ill-temperd words to counter opposing viewpoints.

  p.s

  Konceptual99, we must have posted at the same time,but your post ended up before mine, and it said all I tried to say, but much better.

  pp.s if we had the privalige to conduct a bible study, we were so "right" and we got away with it by being so sincerly wrong. Having been there, I never want to be so " right" again.