Probability of Earth and life being how it is (page 3)

TonusOH

Regarding the idea that people wouldn't die for a lie, there is no shortage of religious martyrs throughout history and into the current day, but they do not all belong to the same religion or share the same beliefs. Thus, it's pretty clear that people will die for a lie. They apparently do it all the time. They may not think it's a lie. Even now, there are billions of people who believe in the wrong god, or the wrong version of god. And if there is no god, then they're wrong to believe in god at all. And if there is, then they're wrong to disbelieve. And so on...

Regarding the unverified and unverifiable claims in an old religious text, the fact that they're unverified and unverifiable should suffice to dismiss that argument. Without a whole raft of presuppositions, I would argue that it is impossible to support any religious belief. I would also point out, as above, that there is no shortage of religious texts that people either once believed or still believe. There isn't even a majority of humanity that believe in one particular religion. This alone speaks against the idea of a god who wishes to get to know us personally, or who has any interest in our salvation.

Regarding the question of infinite regress, I cannot dismiss god as a possibility by using infinite regress. The fact that we are here would imply that there is either something that was always here, or that somehow the universe was born from nothing. If we have to define "nothing" as anything other than nothing, I don't see where we've made any progress on the question. I fully admit that astrophysics is well outside of my understanding, so maybe there's an explanation that makes sense, but I haven't heard it yet.

Sea Breeze

TonusOH,

Thus, it's pretty clear that people will die for a lie.

Of course people will die for a lie. But, that is not the question I asked.

Can you think of any historical examples of where hundreds of people fabricated a lie at the same time that was guaranteed to cause their loved ones to reject and shun them? Then, these same people were willing to die for something they KNEW was a lie?

@Jeffro

The probability of things being the way they are is precisely 1

Your above statement is rooted in the "present", WHICH IS ALREADY THE PAST ONCE OBSERVED.

If I throw a pair of dice, the odds are very understood to the point where casinos can make millions of dollars predicting the outcome, BEFORE they happen, NOT AFTER.

It is difficult (and fascinating) to imagine how an otherwise intelligent human can believe a demonstratable lie like the one you stated.

TonusOH

We have no way to know if the gospel writers knew they were lying, because we don't even know who they were.

It is my understanding that the earliest examples of their writings are fragments of copies that were made decades (centuries?) after the originals had been created. In other words, we probably don't even have the earliest copies of copies of their work, much less the originals.

It seems more likely that they wrote --and embellished-- stories they heard from others who claimed to have been there. We have no way to know if they paid for this with their lives or how they might have reacted if any pressure had been placed on them to recant. There are four gospels in the Bible, but a great many were written around that time. I don't get the impression that these writers were concerned that they might face dire consequences from producing them.

So, my guess would be that they either were not concerned that they would be executed for writing these texts, or they sincerely believed in something that they had not experienced. I'm inclined to believe the former, but the latter is not unheard of.

Sea Breeze

@TonusOH

It is my understanding...It seems more likely...So, my guess would be...

That is a substantial retraction from your earlier statement:

Thus, it's pretty clear that people will die for a lie.

So, no. You cannot provide historical examples where hundreds of people fabricated, lived and preached a lie that guaranteed many of their loved ones would reject and shun them. Then, after suffering this (the same thing many XJW's commit suicide over) these same people were willing to die for something they KNEW was a lie.

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: That is a substantial retraction from your earlier statement:

No, it is not. I explained why it's clear that people will die for a lie.

You asked about the gospel writers, and I explained why we can't apply that standard to them. We cannot claim that they "fabricated, lived and preached a lie that guaranteed many of their loved ones would reject and shun them" because we don't know any of that. We cannot identify these "hundreds of people" you refer to. At best, we can make rational assumptions about them, but we cannot claim anything about them with certainty, because we have no idea who they were.

Sea Breeze

@TonusOH

You answered a question I did not ask. Again, here is the question:

Can you think of any historical examples of where hundreds of people fabricated a lie at the same time that was guaranteed to cause their loved ones to reject and shun them? Then, these same people were willing to die for something they KNEW was a lie?

TonusOH

I jumped ahead to the obvious follow-up, since I know where this is going.

But, to humor you: no, I cannot think of any historical examples of that.

Sea Breeze

no, I cannot think of any historical examples of that

And neither can anyone else..... except for one example: Many Unbelieving scholars who publish in the area of 1st century Christianity agree to the following facts surrounding the Resurrection:

Jesus died by Roman crucifixion.
He was buried, most likely in a private tomb.
Soon afterward, the disciples were discouraged, bereaved, and despondent, having lost hope.
Jesus’ tomb was found empty very soon after his interment.
The disciples had experiences that they believed were actual appearances of the risen Jesus.
Due to these experiences, the disciples’ lives were thoroughly transformed, even being willing to die for this belief.
The proclamation of the resurrection took place very early, at the beginning of church history.
The disciples’ public testimony and preaching of the resurrection took place in the city of Jerusalem, where Jesus had been crucified and buried shortly before.
The Gospel message centered on the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Sunday was the primary day for gathering and worshipping.
James, the brother of Jesus and former skeptic, was converted when, he believed, he saw the risen Jesus.
Just a few years later, Saul of Tarsus (Paul) became a Christian believer due to an experience that he believed was an appearance of the risen Jesus.”

Yet, some folks ask believers to park their common sense and just remain unbelievers with no historical support for their proposition of denial.

I can't do that.

Duran

SB,

Do you believe it is true or a fabricated lie that an angel of God appeared to John and gave him the info to write Rev?

Do you believe it is true or a fabricated lie that an angel of God appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the info to write the book of Mormon?

Do you believe it is true or a fabricated lie that an angel of God appeared to Muhammad and gave him the info to write the Quran?

Will Muslims die for what they believe and kill others for what they believe?

Will Muslims reject and shun their family for not believing?

TonusOH

That is Gary Habermas's "facts" approach. Even if we assume that all of those facts are true, it only gets us as far as "a preacher who claimed he was divine was executed, and his followers helped build a new religion around him." The idea that these men died believing something (that this preacher really was god) that wasn't true is not disputed by this approach.

It is a compelling argument for someone who already believes. And that is before we consider the problems with it.

Probability of Earth and life being how it is

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