Just wanted to say that this is a very thought provoking thread...thanks for the good read
faith and illusion
by teejay 44 Replies latest jw friends
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Realist
teejay,
yuo are trying to solve to many issues at a time. you have to put this thread apart and discuss the individual topics...otherwise it gets too complicated.
about time:
time can be measured because of the increase in entropy. without space and matter time does not exist.
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donkey
time can be measured because of the increase in entropy. without space and matter time does not exist.
Great theoretical concept...
However, if I take you into outer space (where time will have a different measurement - or according to Francois will be nothing) and I stand on your nuts...will you still feel pain? If I stand on them for 3 earth minutes will it feel like an eternity, a fraction of a second or 3 earth minutes?
Divorce theory from reality and you get chaos.
PS the true answer is....longer than 3 earth minutes!!!!!
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Realist
LOL
in your scenario there would be space and matter (me my nuts and you...)...so there is an increase in entropy.
PS: francois obviously confused a few things.
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funkyderek
If you stay there in the void of space where there is no movement, you will still age. Stay there long enough and you will die there. Why? Because of the passage of time. The seconds, minutes, and hours will continue to pass whether apparent to you or not.
If you stay there, yes. But if you move, time slows down, and approaches zero as your speed approaches the speed of light.
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teejay
yuo are trying to solve to many issues at a time. you have to put this thread apart and discuss the individual topics...otherwise it gets too complicated. – Realist
You’re probably right. The only reason I brought up space and time is because Zechariah did. He (a bible believer) was challenged with the question: “Where did god come from?” He replied by saying that, like space and time, certain aspects of god can’t be fully known. I thought it was a fair defense.
Much of what we “know” about space and time is theory. We can sit and hypothesize about what happens in space for the next twenty years, but the fact is none of us really know for sure since we haven’t been there. Still, certain aspects of time and space are known since we experience them in real life despite our lack of complete understanding. Zechariah’s analogy simply says that for believers, god – who is barely known – is, for them, a component of THEIR reality. It made sense to me.
time can be measured because of the increase in entropy. without space and matter time does not exist.
That’s just a theoretical concept since there is no location in the universe where there is neither space nor matter.
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If you stay there, yes. But if you move, time slows down, and approaches zero as your speed approaches the speed of light. – funkyderek
The point is, even in a void where there is no matter – time still passes. There might be a different set of standards of measurement in space and in a void absent matter the passage of time might be difficult to gauge, but time would still pass and, as a result, living things would still age and die.
I think.
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funkyderek
The point is, even in a void where there is no matter – time still passes. There might be a different set of standards of measurement in space and in a void absent matter the passage of time might be difficult to gauge, but time would still pass and, as a result, living things would still age and die.
I don't think so. Without matter or energy, time is at best an irrelevance. Also, of course the addition of a living thing would change the nature of the "void" so it was no longer empty of matter.
Current scientific theories don't allow for the existence of a complete void anyway, so there's no real problem .
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Abaddon
I haven't had time to read all this properly, but this is fun... my first reation is over this;
Man cannot comprehend infinity though he knows it exists.
Define " comprehend infinity". It sounds GREAT! But what does it mean? I understand how exponential numbers work. I can come up with scales that turn my desktop into a galaxy or a galaxy cluster. It's the only way to comprehend such large things. It seems as if the writer is suggesting that there is a 'special' comprehension, beyond what I refer to, and that immediately makes me wonder if the retreat that people will go on to learn how to comprehend the infinate will have a sauna and convenient pot dealer.
He can’t comprehend that space has no end.
Okay, which theory of physics are we talking about? When I was young they were all curly and saddlebacked, none of this end nonsense. Please be specific, are we in an open or closed Universe? I am begining to think that E=Mc(squared) would have probably been best left until after F=ma(squared).
If man could somehow travel to what he believes is the deepest recesses of space perhaps he will find a brick wall there.
Very likely. A thought experiment. What fun.
What is he going to wonder?
Jesus, that was good pot? What is this guy saying??? It's babble.
How thick is the wall and what’s on the other side of that. The same is true of time.
Wow, deep. Orange pineapple satsuma catalope pork rind summer day steamy ice girl run go run! free and hair dancing! The same is true of margarine.
Though man is well aware there was no beginning to time and no end it has to be true.
Is he? Which man? What theories?
This guys just saying stuff, the conversation is fun, but he's waffling, $hit sensors of the scale captain!
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Realist
teejay,
time can be measured because of the increase in entropy. without space and matter time does not exist.
That’s just a theoretical concept since there is no location in the universe where there is neither space nor matter.
thats not just a hypothetical concept. its the essence of time.....a fairly well understood issue in general relativity. outside our universe there is no time and no space...the two are inseperable.
. Zechariah’s analogy simply says that for believers, god – who is barely known – is, for them, a component of THEIR reality. It made sense to me.
there is a huge logical problem with this.....--> just because one cannot understand everything doesn'T mean everything is possible! just because the future cannot be calculated precisely doesn'T mean everything is possible in the future! so stating that god is just as real as time because we cannot understand either is a logical fallacy.
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teejay
just because one cannot understand everything doesn'T mean everything is possible! stating that god is just as real as time because we cannot understand either is a logical fallacy. – Realist
No! I agree. Maybe I didn’t explain myself well enough...
I know that just because one thing is not fully understood (space and time) does not mean that another (manufactured but implausible/impossible mystery – god) is likely... or even possible. The thing is...
I personally don’t believe in god but know of many who do. I’m the kind of person who’s wired to believe in what can be observed by logical means. That’s the way I am. Not all people are wired as beautifully as I am, however. Some, like Zechariah and AGuest (Shelby), believe in things through some other means. To have them tell it, god “talks” to these people while never breathing a word to me or making himself known in some other way.
Now, for me, lack of empirical evidence is good enough reason for me to reach the conclusion that god doesn’t exist. Period. However, a relevant question (at least to me) is: Because little ol’ puny teejay believes god doesn’t exist (or because god simply hasn’t gotten around to making himself known to puny ol’ me) – does that mean he doesn’t exist? I dunno. All I know is that, if he does, he’s – from MY vantage point – as unfathomable as time and space. THAT makes sense, though, because if he IS real and DOES exist he’s got to be some fabulously complex being who can’t possibly be understood in human terms.
That’s why I like Zechariah’s comparison of god’s unknowableness to that of space and time. Made sense to me. I *still* don’t believe in god, though... but that’s me.