by teejay 44 Replies latest jw friends
teejay,
aha! now i understand!
i agree...i too don't believe in a God but i acknowledge the possibility that the universe was indeed created and might have a deeper meaning that we don'T and cannot understand (it seems rather unlikely however considering the design flaws (again from our perspective)).
now AGuest and perhaps Zach too seem to have serious mental issues...
hearing voices and seeing angels etc....i am afraid that they are suffering from undiagnosed schizophrenia.
...now AGuest and perhaps Zach too seem to have serious mental issues...
Now remember... it was YOU that said that... not me!
it seems to me that there is inherent intelligence in the universe far beyond what our puny minds can comprehend. -- witness all of your very profound questions and conjecture.
was that intelligence always there or did it come from nothing? can you understand either answer?
TeeJay, I don't believe in a "god" either -- not in the way most people view the word -- not as an object or thing, person or entity. However, there have been many who harmoniously throughout time have pointed to a deeper truth within us, that which the word "God" points to. Not an object, but rather the ultimate Subject -- I Am. It can not be grasp or understood by the logical intellectual mind, as a tiny ray of light can not understand it's source -- the Sun. You say there is a "lack of empirical evidence". Are you certain? Is it the evidence that is missing, or is it our attention that is lacking and/or focused in the wrong direction? Perhaps your statement is only half correct in that the evidence is not out there: separate from us. We will not find it as a piece, but as the Whole. There are those spiritual pioneers who have let go of everything others have said, and very scientifically questioned and examined deep within their own consciousness, and have discovered at their core an unspeakable and indescribable Infinity. They could not or can not explain it in a finite language created to express and describe finite things. They have however undeniably and unequivocally known It as their true eternal Self. A knowing infinitely more outreaching than limited intellectual thought. They experienced first hand this unifying truth, and identify with and know It as the ultimate Truth of all existence. They can only point; and have authoritatively said the living "evidence" is present and can be discovered if we but shift attention and concern from the phenomenal and finite to the center of our own being. We have to experience and behold It ourselves for it to be empirical and meaningful. What someone else says means nothing. We have to discover ourselves Who we truly are. JamesT
it seems to me that there is inherent intelligence in the universe far beyond what our puny minds can comprehend. -- witness all of your very profound questions and conjecture. was that intelligence always there or did it come from nothing? can you understand either answer? – nowise
Logic and reason tells me that intelligence cannot come from "nothing" but has an intelligent source. I agree with you totally that the overwhelming evidence of creation points to a creator, progenitor, originator of some sort. But god? Who knows.
It can not be grasp or understood by the logical intellectual mind, as a tiny ray of light can not understand it's source -- the Sun. You say there is a "lack of empirical evidence". Are you certain? Is it the evidence that is missing, or is it our attention that is lacking and/or focused in the wrong direction? Perhaps your statement is only half correct in that the evidence is not out there: separate from us. We will not find it as a piece, but as the Whole.
JamesT,
For some strange reason, your comments read like music. Like a poem.
I think you've put your finger on why I'm likely never to know god, if he does exist. I don't use the left side of my brain. Or is it the right? My wiring forces me to look for a logical explanation of things first. The reason. Meditation and using that sort of faculty is by no means a strong suit of mine.
I hold out the possibility that, at the instant I leave this earthly experience, I will learn a (the) real reason behind life. Maybe then I (we) will really come to know god. Until then...
teejay,
what inherent intelligence? there are a couple of physical laws that guide everything...whether they were designed or not is debateable...but beyond that there is no inherent intelligence.it seems to me that there is inherent intelligence in the universe far beyond what our puny minds can comprehend. -- witness all of your very profound questions and conjecture. was that intelligence always there or did it come from nothing? can you understand either answer? – nowiseLogic and reason tells me that intelligence cannot come from "nothing" but has an intelligent source. I agree with you totally that the overwhelming evidence of creation points to a creator, progenitor, originator of some sort. But god? Who knows.
what inherent intelligence? there are a couple of physical laws that guide everything...whether they were designed or not is debateable...but beyond that there is no inherent intelligence.
Realist,
I can't speak for nowise and what they meant by "inherent intelligence," but for me it's (sadly – I hate to admit it) just like what the jehovahs say when they point to the order and obvious design in nature – from the atom, to great galaxies, and everything in between. Forget about the amazing balance between all the thousands of species – just considering what humans are able to accomplish is pretty miraculous... and I don't believe our species evolved from apes, either... even if it took a kazillion years. Why? Because no living links exist where there should be five. Or a hundred. I could go on but I'll just say that all that we can see – whether we use microscopes or satellite telescopes – screams INTELLIGENT design. Don't know if that adds up to god, but it might.
Logic and reason tells me that intelligence cannot come from "nothing" but has an intelligent source.
If intelligence can only come from "an intelligent source", whence comes the intelligent source?
teejay,
hmm i am a little confused....if you view the world as so miraculous and you also deny evolution than how can you not believe in god? how did everything come into existance if you neither believe science nor god?
as for humans not being decendents from apes...there are many inbetween species...but they all got extinct. homo erectus, homo neanderthalensis etc etc...
our closest relatives are bonobos and chimps...which share 95% of the DNA with us (over 99% if you just look at the genes).
it is 99.9999999999% clear that we and higher primates stem from a common ancestor who lived about 5 to 6 millions years ago.
i don'T want to say that the universe is not wonderful....but if you break it down it is not as complex as one might think... and it doesn'T scream for intelligent design. in fact the inevidable death of all complex forms in this universe would suggest that the designer (if there is one) made some huge mistakes in the way he planned this universe.
Realist,
It was only in my former life that I had all of the answers. Nowadays when it comes to these topics, all I know is that there are certain aspects of nature – not the least of which is the human species – that are miraculous to me. At the same time, as I've said, I've seen no meaningful reason to believe that there's presently a god who even knows about planet Earth or cares. Then again, maybe there is one and this life is just one big experiment of his that helps him find how to place us in the next life. The one that counts.
As for evolution and the "certainty" that we come from primates, I'm troubled that they are no missing links. Why are there bonobos and chimps but no homo erectus or Neanderthals when the latter are supposedly superior. IOW, why would a superior species die off and a lesser one live on? I've never seen a satisfactory answer for that.
OTOH (if I don't seem confused enough), generally speaking I do believe that evolution is the way much of life got here. But I also think that life is just to diverse and complex to have all evolved from a ancient soup. Most, maybe, but not all.
I'll take your word for it that the universe isn't as complex as it seems. Seems pretty complex to me. If there's a designer and he/she/it made some major goofs, I have no problem forgiving them. It's probably a little better what I could do and seems to have worked pretty good so far.
If intelligence can only come from "an intelligent source", whence comes the intelligent source? – FunkyD
Realist would say, "from chimps." Zechariah would say, "from god." I'm comfortable saying, "I don't know."
