by BoogerMan 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
John 14:6 - "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Certain Christian denominations lie & contradict Jesus' crystal clear statement, by promoting the following dogma:
John 14:6 - "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me, any of the saints, and especially the Virgin Mary."
Just sayin'.
Or as JW.0rg would say only through their organization or as the Mormons would say only through their church, etc. Ad nauseam.
Instead of making a strawman argument, read this instead:
The Catholic dogma simply states that the saints intercede for us before God, and therefore it is permitted and beneficial to invoke their aid.
The Old Testament bears witness to the fact that God listened to the intercession of His saints while they were on earth; He heard Abraham for Sodom, Moses for Israel, and Job for his friends (Gen 18:23; Ex 32:10; Job 42:8). Thus, He is even more likely to hear those friends who are irrevocably established in His grace. Indeed, according to the Old Testament historian, Jeremiah and the high priest Onias prayed much for the people and the entire holy city (2 Macc 15:11). Tobias prayed to the angel (Tob 12:12); hence, by analogy, it is also permissible to turn to the saints.
In the New Testament, the Savior teaches in a parable that the rich man prayed to Abraham (Luke 16:24); He Himself, after His ascension, stands at the right hand of God and "always lives to make intercession for us" (Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25); thus, the saints, who are definitively united to Christ, the head, and have fully conformed to Him, do the same. Indeed, the apostle Paul effectively prays for the shipwrecked (Acts 27:44); in the Book of Revelation, the twenty-four elders fall before the Lamb, "each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Among the Church Fathers, Origen is the first to explicitly mention and recommend invoking the saints' aid, citing the apostle Paul. The many epitaphs where the living request the intercession of the departed bear eloquent testimony to how deeply rooted this practice was among the faithful. The same is attested by the acts of the martyrs and the litanies. In the 4th century, both theoretical and practical testimonies multiply.
Theological reflection concludes that
a) the saints want to intercede for us. For on earth, they embraced with great sacrificial love the members of God’s kingdom; now, in the holy fire of the beatific vision, those whom God has called to the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven appear to them in a wholly new loveliness; their love and their will to help are intensified by a clearer view of the difficulties and helplessness of earthly pilgrims and the dangers of their journey. The Protestant belief that the love and mercy of the most noble-hearted people cool as they pass through the gate of eternity and enter the atmosphere of God's pure love is a pagan notion and a serious doctrinal error.
b) They can intercede for us. On the one hand, they become aware of what is happening in God's earthly kingdom; on the other hand, it is inconceivable that the God of mercy and love, of life and vigor, would obstruct them in the most beautiful service of mercy, promoting the salvation of struggling souls. From this, theologians rightly infer that the blessed inhabitants of heaven intercede even for the souls suffering in purgatory.
c) Their intercession is effective. This is assured by God's promises in Scripture and by the consideration that they ask of God nothing other than what His merciful love itself intends to provide for people; thus, they are not in conflict with God’s helpful love for humanity.
Protestant critics, however, argue that invoking the saints and their intercession obscures the unique mediating role of Jesus Christ and tempts believers to place their trust not solely in God but also in people. Solution:
a) According to Catholic truth, we expect help solely from the almighty love of God; we turn to the saints to teach us as masters of prayer and to help us pray well to God's majesty as mature brothers in Christ. The devout person clearly sees how unprepared they stand before God; therefore, they seek helpers and friends in whose company they can more confidently appear before God's royal throne. Thus, in the end, Catholic piety does not pray to the saints but to God in the company of the saints. It is telling that the official prayers of the Church (which begin with Oremus) are always directly addressed to God, even if they mention a saint. This alone is a strong refutation of the Protestant charge that Catholicism, even if it does not worship the saints, places devotion to them above the worship of God.
b) It is a law of divine activity that His sovereign and unassailable will is implemented in creation and in the supernatural world through secondary causes. God cannot be swayed by flattery or unauthorized patronage; His conduct is guided solely by His eternal perspectives. But these include the intercession of the saints. Therefore, we are indeed following God's footsteps when we turn to the steward of supernatural goods for help. Since God uses secondary causes to carry out His plans in both the natural and supernatural order, it is reasonable to conclude that just as He does not distribute natural goods equally among creatures, He does not assign the same role to all saints in the supernatural order but sets different tasks for them according to the membership of Christ's mystical body. Therefore, the Catholic practice of turning to different saints for various needs, often even lesser ones, and seeking and honoring different heavenly patrons for different matters and institutions is justified. This practice is commendable because its greater variety is highly suitable for kindling the zeal of the faithful.
c) The intercession of the saints does not overshadow Christ's unique mediating role; the saints derive their intercessory role from Jesus Christ, and thus, as secondary and essentially Christ-dependent intercessors, they testify to the power of Christ's primary intercession.
Either-Or and Both-And
Some Christian communities are quite characterized by the "either-or" stance, which operates as follows:
"Either you believe that you are saved by faith alone, or you believe that only works are necessary." (Catholics are completely falsely accused of this) "Either you believe only in Scripture, or you are a follower of 'human traditions.'" "Either you believe that we can cooperate in our salvation, or you deny that Christ is sufficient for it." "Either you believe that someone can freely turn away from God, or you deny that God is almighty." etc.
These "either-or" arguments are based on a false assumption, namely, that two statements can only be used in an exclusive sense and can only be opposed or contradictory. Either preaching or sacraments; either personal prayer or liturgy; either the Bible or the Church; either the Bible or Tradition; either the Holy Spirit or Tradition; either church authority or personal freedom; either commandments or grace; either worship of God or veneration of the saints, etc., etc.
Catholics deny these statements and consider that two statements can also complement each other.
"We are saved by grace, through faith and works prompted by the love of the Holy Spirit." "The source of the Christian faith is the Church guided by the Holy Spirit, whose source and bond is the Bible." "We are saved exclusively by the grace of the Cross, with which we must cooperate." "God can do anything He wants, but He chooses those who freely choose Him." etc.
Thus, the Catholic Church holds these in a "both-and" sense because they are not contradictory but complementary. Preaching is necessary, but so are the sacraments; personal prayer is necessary, but so is liturgy; the Bible is necessary, but so is the Church; the Bible is necessary, but so is Tradition; the Holy Spirit is necessary, but so is Tradition; personal freedom is necessary, but so is church authority; grace is necessary, but so are the commandments; worship of God is necessary, but so is the veneration of saints.
We can also express this as the "Yes, but..." stance:
"Yes, we are saved by grace through faith – but through active faith." "Yes, Christ is the only way to the Father – but we, as Christians, cooperate with Him in the divine plan, so in a real, though limited, sense we have a co-redeemer role in the history of salvation." "Yes, we must be born again – but being born again means baptism." "Yes, Christ is the rock of the Church – but Christ appointed Peter as His earthly Rock and representative." etc.
So, as I said before, a little subtlety is needed. We should not see contradictions where there are none.
In a broader sense, saints are those who died in God’s friendship and attained salvation. The Church specifically venerates (canonizes) as saints those who possessed all Christian virtues and practiced at least one to a heroic degree.
Holiness can be applied to humans without diminishing the holiness of the Creator God. Public veneration of holy people is appropriate, while the worship and primary object of religious cult is exclusively God. To honor and love a creature with the same level of devotion and submission as the Creator God is a grave sin, sacrilege, and idolatry. However, every person deserves respect precisely because humans are "made in the image of God." We offer religious reverence to those who have led many to God and continue to guide through their writings and lives (prayers). This reverence is justified because of their heightened connection to God. We call them saints because they make God’s holiness tangible. In an absolute sense, only God is holy. Everything and everyone else is holy insofar as they belong to Him (the Bible, the Church, the saints). We give them reverence only to the extent that they are intertwined with God’s world, hence in a narrower sense, they are "holy." (We kiss the Bible and the relics of the saints, doing so without believing the paper or bones to be God. We show signs of reverence because these things intensely remind us of God and His commandments and connect us to the supernatural milieu.) Therefore, in summary: worship (cultus latriæ) is due to God. Veneration (cultus duliæ) is due to the saints. The Church canonizes someone (declares them a saint) precisely because their life example urges others to follow Christ more seriously. The life of a saint is, in essence, an actualized gospel. Every saint, in their specific situation, era, and state of life, demonstrated what the Gospel means in its full strength, even if human weaknesses are sometimes discovered in the saints. (This is even more encouraging: "If they could be saints, friends of God, then so can we.") Therefore, we assert that in every saint, we venerate the one God in the Holy Trinity, and thus all religious cult ultimately, directly or indirectly, is directed to God. The word "prayer" used in relation to the saints can indeed be misleading. However, it must be understood that prayers addressed to the saints are only prayers in an analogous sense. They are prayers in that they are messages addressed to the supernatural world. Their form, nature, and method resemble prayers addressed to God, but their content, formulation, and especially the degree of humble devotion are recognizably different.
Scripture also acknowledges the application of holiness to humans: "Although there is only one [God], who can do all things, and while remaining in himself, renews all things. Generation after generation, he enters into holy souls and makes them friends of God and prophets" (Wis 7:27). St. Paul the Apostle also calls those who have fully embraced Jesus’ teachings saints, meaning those who have repented and are serious Christians: "And such were some of you [sinners fulfilling the sin catalog of St. Paul]; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor 6:11). The Old and New Testaments use the term "saint" for people a total of eighty-four times. This is too frequent for it to be a mere slip of the tongue, mistranslation, later addition, or misinterpretation. The Bible also acknowledges the multifaceted (analogous) use of the term "holy," meaning that something is holy as long as it is connected to the Holy One, even indirectly: "Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the saints greet you" (2 Cor 13:12).
The intercession of saints means that the glorified people who have attained the beatific vision of God can effectively support those who have not yet reached heavenly glory with their prayers.
Trusting in the intercession of the saints means living out the belief in the communion of saints, which we also profess in the Apostles' Creed. A conceptual clarification is also needed here: We use the term intercession in two senses. One meaning applies only to Jesus Christ. In the full sense, He is the only mediator between God and man. His divine-human nature is the link between humans and the incomprehensible divine Being. His death on the cross brought redemption to humanity, and this is effective for salvation as long as this world exists. However, we also use intercession in another, everyday sense: to help someone through mere prayer or request, to intercede for someone before God or humans. It is certain that we can and must pray for each other, so we cannot deny this type of intercession. We should not make a conceptual issue out of it and deny the possibility of human intercession based on the fact that only Jesus is the mediator. It is clear that there are two completely different qualities of intercession. Jesus’ intercession is unconditional, while the saints' is conditional. Jesus’ intercession is infinitely powerful, while the saints' is always finite and always realized only through the work of Jesus. The intercessory power of saints depends on the perfection of their love for God and their closeness to Him (Thom. Aquin. STh. III. 211. 83,11). Therefore, it is worthwhile to pray for each other, but the intercessory power of the saints’ prayers is immeasurably greater.
Scripture eloquently teaches the power and possibility of human intercession and that the power of intercession depends on the sanctity of the intercessor: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect. Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and for three years and six months, it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. My brothers, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:16). Both Scripture and Jewish tradition acknowledge that the prayers of saints are more effective than those of sinners: "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He does listen to the one who worships Him and does His will" (John 9:31). Jesus accepts human intercession and fulfills His mother's request in a matter that was not originally His intention: "On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, and Jesus and His disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to Him, 'They have no more wine.' 'Woman, why do you involve Me?' Jesus replied, 'My hour has not yet come.' His mother said to the servants, 'Do whatever He tells you.' Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants, 'Fill the jars with water'; so they filled them to the brim. Then He told them, 'Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.' They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, 'Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.' What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which He revealed His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. After this He went down to Capernaum with His mother and brothers and His disciples. There they stayed for a few days" (John 2:1).
Who knows what jesus said ,the gospels were written by unknown authors decades after the so called events, its been copied and translated and probably changed depending upon the copist and their belief systems.
@ aqwsed12345 - Instead of employing cognitive dissonance, dismissing plain Bible wording, and copying & pasting theological R.C. gobbledy-gook which has zero Scriptural backing, read John 14:6 again and let us know which part of "except through me" is incomprehensible.
While you're at it, can you enlighten us on how this -
1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,"
can be changed to this -
1
Timothy 2:5 -
"For there
is
one God and many
Mediators between God and men, the
Man Christ Jesus, myriads of saints, and
the Virgin Mary."
If you can respond
using Scriptures and your own
reasoning, that would be appreciated.
Boogerman, WTC twists 1 Timothy 2:25, saying that Christ is only mediator for the anointed remnant, not all men, not even all JW men (and women), especially not non-JWs.
Most JWs are not aware of this position and go along, oblivious that WTC's teaching supposedly leaves them with no mediator. - - - - Or do they? Enter the Governing Body to fill the vacuum. They covet the role of mediator, although they are wise enough to not put it in print, a threshold they know better than to cross - at least for now.
Some JWs would no doubt embrace the GB as a mediator, similar to Israel's rejection of Samuel in favor of a literal King, Saul. So how have they developed such adoration since their formation in the 1970's? During the following decades, WTC has cleverly reduced the attention to Christ that the Christian Greek scriptures highlight.
Read more widely. The bible is arguably the most influential book ever written and familiarity with it makes sense of so much poor behaviour on our part. Sexism, homophobia, slavery, not to mention wilful scientific ignorance have all been endorsed by that book.
May I recommend Straight and Crooked Thinking by R.H Thouless?
I seldom read what asq writes. He copies it from Catholic sources, ignores the Bible's content, advocates a religion that isn't Christian except in name only. I think he fears the Bible.
It's hard to read stuff that's a mile long too
I dont intend to be mean.
