Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Sharpie

  Shower thought entered my mind the other day..

  Jesus Christ. as per doctrine. Is still alive in heaven right now correct? If so what sacrifice took place?

  " Romans 5:12 12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.

  The moment when Jesus Christ was killed.. shouldn't life entered the world? But if Jesus Christ still exists, what good was the sacrifice? Shouldn't Jesus Christ be destroyed entirely for any sacrifice to take place?

  Just trying to think of what the witness doctrine would say to this?
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  GabeAthouse

  The "Ransom" doctrine makes no sense. Not the Witness interpretation nor mainstream Christianity's.
  
  According to scripture he was dead for 3 days. So the "sacrifice" was giving up a long weekend. Then, if one is a trinitarian, it becomes even more nonsensical. He sacrificed himself to himself to save humanity from himself.

  There may or may not have been some person in Palestine who preached the admirable things that Jesus was said to have said. But countless human beings throughout history have been tortured and executed, who didn't have the comfort of being an immortal deity. (assuming you believe that part of the story).
  
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  waton

  Great answers. ha ha. In its barest form, wt doctrine on the ransom is, that jesus had the right to eternal earthly life. he gave that up in favour of humans, and the better hope of himself returning to a, better, immortal spirit life.

  The wt 144 000 do likewise, wrongly imagining to be the only ones in the new covenant for forgiveness of sins, , they too, are willing to sacrifice that right for the higher calling. now,

  if only there really had been talking snakes, asses. did the story work?

  The gambit worked for wtbts inc so far.
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  Fisherman

  Jesus’ answer is eat my body drink my blood. His perfect body of flesh is the ransom.
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  Sea Breeze

  Just trying to think of what the witness doctrine would say to this?

  WT would say that Jesus paid a debt for Adam.... not you or me. For the average JW, the WT would say that you now get to work for your salvation by doing good and adhering to all the rules of the WT. Pretty much the same as the Catholic Church.

  But scripture says that "by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified". (Justification means - no debt). But what is even worse than that is that scripture also says if you try to work for your salvation, you are actually piling up even more debt that you must pay for on Judgement Day - after you die (Hebrews 9:27)

  Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
  

  For the joy that was set before him, Jesus paid a debt He didn’t owe because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay.

  The moment when Jesus Christ was killed.. shouldn't life entered the world? But if Jesus Christ still exists, what good was the sacrifice? Shouldn't Jesus Christ be destroyed entirely for any sacrifice to take place?

  Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

  Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

  Believers get a new spirit when they are sealed. That new spirit cannot sin and thus is a down payment on the full redemption which will include the soul and the body.

  When Jesus died as a righteous person, he had no debt. Thus he had a "right" to life. Since God is "a God of the living and not the dead", God freely gave him his rightful inheritance of life.

  Believers are offered the same inheritance:

  Jn. 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God
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  waton

  The idea of the ransom comes from the concept that there was something going wrong with creation 6000 years ago. It really was a good production for 13 billion years, resulting in the universe, life and all the perfectly functioning species.

  then a talking snake precipitated the idea, that the normal life and death cycle of all creation (including stars) , to be an abnormality for humans.

  The ransom does not have to work if it is a contrived story in the first place. no quasi-cannibalism required.

  good glass of wine under the full spring moon though.

  mankind,s progress/regress continues unabated since the golgotha event, the "second" coming in 1914 even.
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  WTWizard

  The whole concept of "original sin" is a tool to remove all hope from the earth. You condemn us for not following laws from some alien world, which defy nature. Then you invent some archetype of the perfect slave, "sacrifice" this never-existing entity, then expect everyone to act like this perfect slave. Once it reaches a sufficient level, it is imposed on all of humanity. And it worked--twice. The first time was when the xians (who were persecuted because they were subverting the Romans) got into the government and then persecuted regular people. And this time, they are pushing communism--our freedom is gone.

  There is no ransom. We are all hostage, not to any original sin, but to the Pleiades laws that defy common sense. That thing they call a god wants to use us up and throw us away--the whole thing of its taking credit for creating us is another way to take away our rights to live proper lives in accordance to natural law. And, eventually we will all be hostages to Noahide Law--and with no ransom provided against that.
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  Sea Breeze

  @WT Wizard,

  You have brought up Noahide Law a number of times. I'm curious as to what you think that is and why you think it will enslave us?
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  Fisherman

  Noahide Law

  The 7 laws enjoined upon all humanity including the prohibition against blood.
  
  
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  TonusOH

  I think I once had a jacket made from noahide.