Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  truth_b_known

  I would like to point out that even though Paul wrote that "through one man, Adam, sin entered the world" the statement is a half-truth. "Sin" entered the world after Adam and Eve disobeyed God. The punishment handed down from Judge YHWY to the guilty parties was -

  • You no longer have a perfect body.
  • That means you will get sick, grow old, and die.
  • Your sentence is a death sentence to you and to your yet to be conceived children.
  • Do ensure you have children to condemn to death I will give you a sex drive to ensure conception.
  • Once you die you will exist as disembodied energy that will experience pain for eternity.

  After handing down a sentence of death and eternal torture for 2 pieces of stolen fruit to the first couple and an unborn race of sentient beings YHWH wanted to show just what a good guy he is. YHWH sends himself in the form of a man to die sinless. The 2 pieces of stolen fruit were compensated to YHWH by YHWH. In short, YHWH took a $2.00 bill from his right pocket and put it into his left pocket.

  Was the debt paid? No. The proof - we are all still declared imperfect sinners, deserving of death, and eternal damnation. Romans 3:20 even condemns a person who perfectly follows all the law and commandments of YHWH as the law is just there to make us aware of being a sinner.

  The first test was not eating fruit from one tree. The second test is to believe. Believe that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation from a wrathful God. It is pointless to make every attempt to act in a good way, better ourselves, and make amends for our transgressions. Rather, believe in a God who allowed himself to be killed as a man by being nailed to a hunk of wood. That is all that matters. All the harm we have done to ourselves and other will be magicked away.

  Playing the martyr, or “martyr complex,” is when a person has an exaggerated sense of obligation to suffer or sacrifice for others in order to elicit sympathy, love, and admiration. It's also meant to evoke guilt. So playing the martyr is passive-aggressive behavior, and one of the hallmarks of covert narcissism.

  
• 

  GabeAthouse

  Sea Breeze said:
  
  @WT Wizard,

  You have brought up Noahide Law a number of times. I'm curious as to what you think that is and why you think it will enslave us?
  
  because WTWizard is a kook. a dingbat. a crank. a crackpot. a wacko. a screwball. a fruitcake.
  
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Seabreeze

  "WT would say that Jesus paid a debt for Adam.... not you or me. For the average JW, the WT would say that you now get to work for your salvation by doing good and adhering to all the rules of the WT. Pretty much the same as the Catholic Church."

  So are you saying that JWs believe the ransom does nothing for them and only for Adam? Yet they believe Adam is already eternally destroyed in their books- no?

  So what do Witnesses believe Jesus' death accomplishes for them if their own death pays for their personal sins?

  Any ideas?
  
  
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Just picked this up from the Org.

  Re: Ransom

  Jesus’ sacrifice is the means by which God delivers, or saves, humankind from sin and death. The Bible refers to the shed blood of Jesus as a ransom price. Thus, Jesus said that he came “to give his life a ransom for many.”​—King James Version.

  Why was “a ransom for many” needed?

  The first man, Adam, was created perfect, or without sin. He had the prospect of living forever but lost it by choosing to disobey God. When he had children, he passed on to them the defect of sin. For this reason, the Bible indicates that Adam “sold” himself and his children into slavery to sin and death. Being imperfect, none of them could buy back what Adam lost.​.

  God felt compassion for Adam’s descendants in their hopeless situation. However, God’s standard of justice required that he not simply overlook or excuse their sins without a valid basis. God loves mankind, so he provided the necessary legal means for their sins to be not only forgiven but also eliminated. The ransom is that legal basis.

  How does the ransom work?

  In the Bible, the term “ransom” involves the following three elements:

  1. It is a payment.​

  2. It brings about a release, or redemption.

  3. It corresponds to the value of what is paid for, or covers it.

  Consider how these elements apply to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

  1. Payment. The Bible says that Christians were “bought with a price.” That price is the blood of Jesus, with which he “bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”​

  2. Release. Jesus’ sacrifice provides a “release by ransom” from sin.​

  3. Correspondence. Jesus’ sacrifice corresponds exactly to what Adam lost​—one perfect human life. The Bible says: “Just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person [Jesus Christ] many will be made righteous.” This explains how the death of one man can pay the ransom for many sinners. In fact, Jesus’ sacrifice is “a corresponding ransom for all” those who take the steps necessary to benefit from it."

     So it seems, according to the WTS that Jesus paid the ransom for all mankind so they could be raised at the resurrection, but I don't see who He paid the ransom to.
• 

  waton

  I don't see who He paid the ransom to.

  Vdh, well to the one who imposed the death sentence in the first place, and who put the object of temptation in place too,

  the ransom was deposited, payed , delivered ~ 45 days after the dying act of coining it on the cross/stake, an murderous act orchestrated by a "fallen" son of god too, so,

  it is all in the family Archie would say, affecting mostly the state of mind, even now.

  has it occurred to you, that death is the most essential tool for the advancement of life, of the universe even? A personal enemy perhaps, for the common good.?
  
  
  
• 

  waton

  I don't see who He paid the ransom to. Vdh,

  perhaps the hidden truth lies in Jesus' use of the term "the son of man came to--" in connection with the ransom, or betterment of the human race.

  From the time that our ancestors were swinging in or under the trees in Eden or the Cameroons, it was procreation and death, untimely for the least fit, that let to the advancement of our species.

  call death the price, or ransom that a species pays for longtime aka everlasting success. Even stars die, so the next generation can be richer in heavier metals, carbon even, the organic element.

  A random ransom like arrangement. proton.
• 

  TonusOH

  The concept seems odd to me. I think it always did. I am allowed to kill some lesser creature and spill its blood upon the ground, and God will forgive me my transgressions. We bypass this today because God offered to sacrifice a human body, one that he (or His son) temporarily inhabited before returning to Heaven. To a being older than time itself, this interlude was so short, it is difficult to imagine that He even noticed it.

  What I wonder about it is... could Jesus have failed? Was there a possibility that he would sin, and thus condemn humanity to an eternity of sin, suffering, and death? What would happen to Jesus/God if this had happened? What would have happened to Satan? If Jesus's triumph was inevitable and Satan's defeat guaranteed, why was the sacrifice even necessary? Who did Jehovah feel He needed to impress?
• 

  waton

  Re ransom claim: For one, Jesus should have been required to deliver proof that he was the "second Adam" by living, with the available angelic protection he claimed existed, naturally past the age of the first man. say, to a ripe, but young 10001 years. The light of the world, like photons, that do not age, ever.

  then he would be the proven, believable equivalent. To live a life of sacrifice; not just a 3 day/nights sleep at a normal average life span age, of that era.
• 

  Sea Breeze

  @VH,

  One of the main complaints about God is that he allows sin. Many erroneously conclude that there must not be a God, or at least one who cares. It is more accurate to say that God allows (even created) "Free Will".

  The existence of sin or evil proves that free will is very real. But what to do about the consequences of sin?

  1. Ignore it?

  2. Punish it ?

  3. Prevent it?

  To ignore sin is to enable sin. God is not an enabler.

  To prevent sin is to prevent Free Will. God loves freedom. "Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

  To punish sin is to promote containment of evil, and yet preserve/protect/promote freedom for the innocent.

  
  Enter - Grace. Grace restores relationship through the instrumentality of substitution. It is the kryptonite for sin. Real relationships are two-way enterprises. In Grace, there is the one extending it and the one receiving it. Where sin breaks relationship, grace restores it.
  
  If someone doesn't want Gods grace and vicarious payment of their sin, then they must pay for their sins themselves. It is simple to understand.

  Regarding the question on who the payment of sin is paid to, I think that all we have to do is look to our own courts. Prosecutors are said to represent "the people". Sentences are paid to the penal institution or the State, and not to the prosecutor himself.
  
  Likewise, the payment for sin is paid to the community of created agents capable of morality. That's the way I see it.

  So are you saying that JWs believe the ransom does nothing for them and only for Adam?

  They give a little lip service to the ransom sacrifice, but they ultimately believe that they will atone for their own sin when they die. So, the idea that Jesus is some sort of scapegoat for them personally isn't even on their radar. With WT lies, they are inoculated against seeing the need to receive Christ as their "kinsman redeemer", a man like us.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @ Seabreeze

  Excellent response! Hope you don't mind if I copy and use it with your permission.

  Here are some things I have found:

  Christ paid the ransom by His death

  Matthew_20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mark 10:45)

  The ransom was paid for all

  1Timothy_2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

  The price for the believer's ransom being the blood of Christ.

  Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased (ransomed) with his own blood.

  The Ransom was paid to free men from sin's consequences i.e., spiritual separation from God including slavery to sin and ultimately from eternal death.

  
  

  Hos_13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

  The ransom payment was paid for all so mankind would have a right to a resurrection. Christ died for all. But it seems that the benefits of the ransom sacrifice don't apply to the other sheep right now.

  The January 1, 1987 Watchtower, page 30 says:

  "While the small group selected to be taken to heaven have had their sins forgiven from Pentecost of 33 C.E. onward and thus already enjoy the Jubilee, the Scriptures show that the liberation for believing mankind will occur during Christ's Millennial Reign. That will be when he applies to mankind the benefits of his ransom sacrifice."

  Watchtower writings speak highly of "the atonement." But, in fact, as to its importance, they relegate it to a secondary status behind human good works. In an ultimate sense, what is it that determines whether or not the salvation benefits of Christ’s death are applied? It is not faith in Christ that applies the merits of Christ, but the good works and perseverance of the individual and his faith in the Watchtower Society. For without these, the merits of Christ are worthless. The atonement is therefore of secondary importance to man’s own works of righteousness. Apparently then, for the Watchtower Society, what the Bible describes as "filthy rags" (our works of righteousness) has more value for salvation than the sacrificial and sanctified death of Jesus Christ Himself!

  The Witnesses’ doctrine of the ransom largely ignores the Biblical teaching on the subject, by claiming to accept the "ransom sacrifice" which was provided in the death of Christ not as a finished work, but only as a foundation from which man works to provide his own salvation.