Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard
    There are literally dozens of scriptures that refute the Trinity, possibly even hundreds, but that hasn't stopped them until now.

    How many times do we have to beat this dead horse? Every single scripture you think bolsters your position, the Trinitarias claim proves their position. There are literally dozens of scriptures that refute the Unitarian God, they would say. Maybe even hundreds.

    According to Christian belief, Jesus was fully God while on earth. The concept of Jesus being fully God and fully human at the same time is a core Christian belief, known as the Incarnation.

    Ok. What does it mean to be "fully" God? Or even "fully" human? My guess is that what you think it means is not what Trinitarians think - so again, you talk past each other.

    This means that Jesus, while on Earth, possessed both divine attributes, like omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence.

    Why? That seems like your definition.

    If Jesus is God Almighty, how can he be described as the "Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6) Surely he'd be the king of peace?

    Oh snap. Another scripture they have no answer for. If only they would read their Bible, they would stumble across this scripture. How could they go thousands of years and not read this???!! .. It's definitely not the case that there is an answer that would be found by 5 minutes of Google searching.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    You seek to challenge the doctrine of the Trinity by highlighting biblical passages that seemingly suggest a disparity in knowledge among the persons of the Godhead—namely Matthew 24:36, Acts 1:7, and Revelation 1:1—a detailed Trinitarian refutation is warranted. You argus that these verses imply Jesus and the Holy Spirit lack knowledge possessed solely by the Father, thus undermining the co-equality central to Trinitarian theology. Additionally, you question the concept of Christ’s dual nature and dismisses theological appeals to mystery as obfuscation. However, this interpretation fails to account for the nuanced understanding of the Trinity and the hypostatic union as articulated by Church Fathers and scholastic theologians. This refutation will systematically address the objections raised, elucidating the orthodox Trinitarian position and demonstrating the coherence of the doctrine in light of the cited scriptures, while incorporating the additional scriptural and patristic evidence provided.

    The doctrine of the Trinity posits that God exists as three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who are co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial, sharing the same divine essence. Each person is fully God, yet there is only one God. This unity of essence does not preclude distinction in roles or relations among the persons. The persons are distinguished by their relations of origin: the Father is unbegotten, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. These distinctions do not imply inequality or a hierarchy of essence but reflect the internal processions within the Godhead, a concept grounded in the eternal generation of the Son and the procession of the Spirit, as affirmed by the Council of Florence: "Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle." The assertion that Jesus’ ignorance of the end times and the Holy Spirit’s omission from certain passages disprove their deity misunderstands this foundational Trinitarian framework.

    Addressing Matthew 24:36, where Jesus states, "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father," you interpret this as evidence that Jesus lacks divine omniscience, suggesting He cannot be God. This overlooks the doctrine of the hypostatic union, defined at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD, which asserts that Jesus Christ possesses two natures—divine and human—united in one person without confusion, change, division, or separation. In His divine nature, Jesus shares fully in the divine essence and is omniscient, as Colossians 2:3 declares, "In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." However, in His human nature, assumed through the Incarnation, He voluntarily embraced human limitations, as Philippians 2:6-7 describes: "Though he was in the form of God, he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant." Thus, Jesus’ statement in Matthew 24:36 refers to His human nature, not His divine nature. Church Fathers such as Augustine, Athanasius, and Gregory of Nazianzus consistently taught that statements of ignorance pertain to Christ’s humanity. Augustine, in On the Trinity (Book I, Chapter 12), parallels this with Genesis 22:12, where God says, "Now I know that you fear God," not indicating divine ignorance but revealing human truth. Similarly, Jesus’ words curb speculative curiosity, directing attention to vigilance (Matthew 24:42), not denying His divine knowledge.

    You question why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned as ignorant in Matthew 24:36, implying a deficiency in the Trinitarian model. However, scripture affirms the Holy Spirit’s omniscience unequivocally. In 1 Corinthians 2:10-11, Paul writes, "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God… no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." Isaiah 11:2 and John 16:13 further depict the Spirit as possessing divine wisdom and guiding into all truth. The omission in Matthew 24:36 does not suggest ignorance but reflects the verse’s focus on the Father’s role in the economy of salvation, not a denial of the Spirit’s knowledge. The Spirit’s consubstantiality with the Father and Son ensures His full participation in divine omniscience, as Aquinas argues in the Summa Theologica (ST I, Q.27), where the processions within the Trinity preserve unity of essence.

    Acts 1:7, where Jesus says, "It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction," is cited to question why the Son and Spirit lack jurisdiction. This misunderstands the economic Trinity, which delineates distinct roles: the Father as source, the Son as mediator, and the Spirit as sanctifier. The "jurisdiction" refers to the Father’s prerogative in determining salvation history’s timeline, not a limitation on the Son or Spirit. Jesus affirms His unity with the Father in John 16:15, "All that belongs to the Father is mine," indicating shared knowledge and authority. The assumption that only God knows the time because He is God, while Jesus does not because He is not, ignores this relational dynamic within the Godhead, where roles differ but essence remains equal.

    Revelation 1:1, stating that God the Father “gave a revelation” to Jesus, is presented as proof of the Father’s superior knowledge. This interpretation fails to grasp the Trinitarian dynamic of eternal generation. The Son, eternally begotten, receives all from the Father, including divine knowledge, as John 13:3 notes, "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands." This reception does not imply ignorance but reflects the eternal communion within the Trinity. The Council of Florence clarifies that the Son’s possession of all things from the Father—including omniscience—is intrinsic to His divine nature. Pope Gregory I, in his epistle Sicut aqua frigida (August 600), refutes the Agnoetae, arguing that the incarnate Word, as Wisdom itself (John 1:1-3), cannot lack knowledge of what He created, including the day of judgment. Jesus’ human nature knows this not from itself but through union with His divine nature, yet He refrains from revealing it, aligning with His mission’s purpose, not a deficiency.

    You critique the dual nature of Christ as “a later invention” to explain problematic verses, asserting Jesus never claimed it. However, the New Testament lays its foundation: John 1:1-14 declares, "The Word was God… and the Word became flesh," while Philippians 2:6-8 and Colossians 2:9 affirm Christ’s divine and human natures. The Chalcedonian formulation articulates what scripture implies, not invents. Theologians distinguish Christ’s threefold human knowledge—beatific (intuitive vision of God), infused (divinely granted for His mission), and acquired (experiential). In His beatific vision, Christ knows all things, including the end times, but this incommunicable knowledge aligns with Acts 1:7’s intent, not contradicting His divine omniscience.

    The dismissal of "mystery" as a cop-out misrepresents its theological role. Aquinas notes in Summa Theologica (ST I, Q.12, A.7) that the divine essence transcends human comprehension, yet revelation provides coherence, not contradiction. The Trinity and Incarnation are mysteries because they exceed reason’s grasp, not because they defy logic. The hypostatic union unites two natures in one person, not a hybrid creature, a distinction rooted in Chalcedon’s precision.

    Finally, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ view that God “selectively chooses” not to know future events (e.g., Insight on the Scriptures, "Foreknowledge") undercuts their own argument. If the Father can limit His knowledge yet remain God, then Jesus’ human ignorance in Mark 13:32 does not disprove His divinity. Orthodox theology, however, affirms God’s absolute omniscience (Isaiah 46:10, Revelation 13:8), rendering this selective foreknowledge inconsistent with scripture.

    In conclusion, the objections stem from a misreading of Trinitarian theology and the hypostatic union. Matthew 24:36, Acts 1:7, and Revelation 1:1, when contextualized biblically and patristically, affirm the co-equality of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus’ human limitations reflect the Incarnation’s humility, not a denial of His divine omniscience, shared eternally with the Father and Spirit. The Trinity remains a coherent, scripturally grounded doctrine, not a contorted falsehood.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The charge that the New Testament statements about the “day and the hour” destroy Trinitarian doctrine rests on a cluster of exegetical and metaphysical misunderstandings whose pedigree stretches from the second-century Monarchians through the fourth-century Arians down to present-day anti-Trinitarians. A Thomistic response must proceed on three levels: the text of Scripture read in its canonical totality, the patristic consensus that shaped the dogmatic definitions, and the metaphysics of the Incarnation and of divine knowledge. Only within that triple horizon can Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7 and analogous passages be weighed without anachronism.

    First, the literary context. In Mark’s eschatological discourse Jesus enumerates created orders—“heaven and earth,” “angels in heaven,” “the Son”—in order to establish an absolute epistemic gap between creaturely time and the transcendent counsel by which the Father determines the parousia. Nothing in the syntax compels the inference that the Son as such is ignorant; rather, Jesus is speaking in the prophetic persona of the Servant who, in Isaiah’s idiom, “does nothing of himself” and whose teaching deliberately withholds what the disciples “cannot bear” (Jn 16:12). This pedagogical reserve re-emerges after Easter in Acts 1:7, where the risen Lord repeats almost verbatim the prohibition against apocalyptic timetables. It is therefore hermeneutically arbitrary to wrench Mark 13:32 from that two-stage discourse and read it as a metaphysical disavowal of omniscience. The function of the saying is ascetical: to silence eschatological curiosity and impose vigilance. As Augustine remarks (Trin. I 12), Christ “makes others ignorant by saying he does not know,” just as God tests Abraham not to learn but to reveal what was already known to God.

    Patristic exegesis is unanimous on this pedagogical key. Athanasius, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, Cyril of Alexandria and Augustine distinguish between what the Word possesses per se as consubstantial life and what he economically communicates ad extra. When the Arians brandished Mark 13:32, Athanasius replied that the verse refers to the Son’s οκονομία, not to his θεότης: “as God he knows, as Teacher he withholds” (Or. III 46). Gregory of Nazianzus insists that it is “the flesh-bearing form” that is said not to know, lest the faithful “adore a naked Deity without the veil” (Or. 29 17). Pope Gregory I will later enshrine the same reading: Christ knows in his humanity, but only because his humanity subsists in the person of the Word, and he may elect not to render that knowledge communicable (scientia incommunicabilis). The Church therefore branded as Agnoetae those who ascribed genuine ignorance to Christ’s humanity, precisely because such ignorance would contradict the communicatio idiomatum guaranteed by the hypostatic union.

    Aquinas systematises the patristic data with unrivalled clarity (ST III, q. 9–12). Christ’s one human intellect exercises three modes of cognition. The beatific vision, granted from the first instant of conception, is a direct intuition of the divine essence in which all truths are implicitly contained. Infused knowledge (scientia infusa) endows the humanity with habitual propositional truths proportioned to his mission. Acquired knowledge grows historically through experience. If a datum pertains to the salvation he came to reveal, it falls within the scope of infused knowledge and can be expressed at will; if it lies outside that scope, it remains incommunicable, even though virtually present in the beatific vision. Thus Aquinas can affirm that Christ “knows the day and hour in two ways and does not know it in a third,” without incoherence: he knows simpliciter in the beatific vision; he knows secondarily by infused habit, should he choose to apply that habit to the object; he “does not know” relative to the office of revelation, because revealing it would frustrate the moral purpose of the discourse (ST III, q. 15, a. 10 ad 2).

    Hence Christ possessed three kinds of knowledge as man: the beatific vision (intuitive vision of God), infused knowledge (a supernatural illumination exceeding that of any creature), and acquired knowledge (gained experientially through his human faculties). The “ignorance” ascribed to Christ in Mark 13:32, as Augustine, Gregory the Great, and many others taught, refers not to any imperfection or deficiency in the Word as such, but to the economy of revelation and the limitations proper to Christ’s assumed human nature—limitations freely embraced for the sake of our redemption (Philippians 2:6-8). Indeed, even in his humanity, the Church teaches that Christ's soul, being hypostatically united to the divine Person, possessed all knowledge necessary for the accomplishment of his salvific mission, including the day of judgment, though not all knowledge was “communicable” or disclosed in his prophetic office. Thus, as Aquinas observes, Christ may be said “not to know” in the sense of not making known, or not knowing in the manner appropriate to his office as the revealer of the Father at that particular moment.

    It is a category error, then, to suppose that a limitation in communicable, human, or prophetic knowledge constitutes an ontological limitation upon the divine nature itself. This is precisely the error of the Agnoetae heresy, roundly condemned by the Fathers. As Gregory the Great wrote to Eulogius of Alexandria: “He knows the day and the hour in his humanity, but not from his humanity; what he knows as man, he knows through the power of his divinity.” This is no mere evasion, but a careful articulation of the metaphysical reality that, although the human nature of Christ is not omniscient per se, it is never separated from the Logos, who is omniscient per se.

    This Thomistic framework also dissolves the alleged silence concerning the Holy Spirit. When Jesus distinguishes himself and the angels from “the Father,” he is using “Father” in the economic sense of principium operationum, the fountain from whom both the Word and the Spirit are eternally spirated and by whom the missions of Son and Spirit are historically sent. To say that “only the Father” knows is to say that the knowledge of the parousia is incommunicable from the intra-divine principle to the creaturely order until the economy renders it manifest. It is no more a denial of the Spirit’s omniscience than Jesus’ statement “my doctrine is not mine” (Jn 7:16) is a denial that the doctrine belongs to the Word. Appropriation language assigns operations to one person to highlight relational origin, not to imply ontological deficiency in the other persons.

    Hence the supposed silence regarding the Holy Spirit's knowledge in Mark 13:32 is an argument from silence—a fallacy easily avoided by reading the totality of scriptural testimony. The New Testament consistently attributes omniscience to the Spirit (cf. 1 Corinthians 2:10-11: “the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God... no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God”), and thus no reasonable reading would take Mark 13:32 as a literal exclusion of the Spirit’s omniscience, any more than it would deny the Father’s omnipotence when a passage fails to mention it explicitly. The dominical saying singles out the Father as the arche (principle, source) of the Trinity—consistent with Trinitarian doctrine—not as the sole possessor of divine knowledge in a unipersonal sense.

    The reading of Revelation 14 advanced by anti-Trinitarians ignores Johannine symbolism. The “one like a Son of Man” is the Danielic figure to whom universal judgment is given (Dn 7:13–14); his receiving angelic exhortation functions typologically, echoing Daniel’s visions where angels mediate heavenly decrees to prophetic seers. Within apocalyptic convention such an exchange does not prove ignorance; it dramatizes the liturgical cooperation of heavenly orders with the enthroned Lamb. Indeed, earlier in the same book the risen Christ proclaims, “I was dead, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades” (Rv 1:18), a self-designation that presupposes exhaustive sovereignty over eschatological moments. Revelation 1:1, far from contradicting this, displays the taxis of the economic Trinity: the Father as arche without origin, the Son as mediator of revelation, and the Spirit as the prophetic breath speaking to the churches (Rv 2:7). At no point does the text suggest a hierarchical deficit of knowledge within the Godhead.

    Hence the assertion that the “Son of Man” in Revelation is presented as an angelic figure is not sustained by critical scholarship or the development of New Testament Christology. The “one like a son of man” motif (Daniel 7:13; Revelation 1:13; 14:14) is consistently interpreted in the New Testament as a messianic, divine-human title, uniquely fulfilled in Christ, not as a mere angel among angels. The reception of the message “from another angel” in Revelation 14:15 does not render Christ angelic any more than the reception of the Spirit at the baptism or the voice from heaven at the Transfiguration undermines his divinity. Rather, these are symbolic of Christ’s mediatorial office and the proper roles within the economy of salvation, not ontological statements about his nature.

    The complaint that the dual-nature doctrine is a post-biblical contrivance betrays historical amnesia. Every document of the New Testament attributes to Christ prerogatives that Israelite monotheism reserves to YHWH—creation (Jn 1:3), judgment (Jn 5:22), worship (Mt 28:17), theophanic glory (Phil 2:10–11)—and simultaneously affirms his genuine humanity subject to growth (Lk 2:52) and passion. Chalcedon’s “without confusion or division” merely provides the metaphysical grammar to hold together what the canonical witnesses already conjoin. Nor is mystery a resort to irrationality. Mystery, in the scholastic sense, is a truth that exceeds but does not violate reason; it can be negatively circumscribed and positively harmonized with all data once revelation supplies its principle. To dismiss mystery is to mistake transcendence for contradiction. This union is not a mere juxtaposition but a true and intimate union at the level of personhood (hypostasis). The distinction between nature (what one is) and person (who one is) is not artificial, but metaphysically necessary for coherently articulating the Incarnation without lapsing into either Nestorianism (dividing Christ into two persons) or Eutychianism (mixing the natures into a tertium quid).

    Hence the claim that the doctrine of Christ’s dual nature is an artificial, post-biblical construct is contradicted by the testimony of both the New Testament and the earliest Christian writings. John 1:1-14, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:5-11, and Hebrews 1:1-4, among others, unmistakably teach the full deity and true humanity of Christ. The Church’s dogmatic definitions (Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon) are not “inventions” but authoritative syntheses of the apostolic deposit, responding to heresies that denied either Christ’s divinity or his humanity. The fact that the technical vocabulary (e.g., “hypostasis,” “ousia”) emerged in the patristic period does not undermine the doctrine’s scriptural foundation; it merely reflects the Church’s task of defining, not inventing, the content of divine revelation.

    The assertion that the Son’s reception of revelation from the Father (Revelation 1:1) indicates ontological inferiority confuses the immanent Trinity (the eternal relations within the Godhead) with the economic Trinity (God’s action in salvation history). According to the classical doctrine, all that the Son has, he has from the Father (John 16:15: "All that the Father has is mine"); this eternal procession is not an act of subordination but the very mode of the Son’s equality with the Father (cf. Augustine, De Trinitate, I.12). In the economy, the Son is sent, reveals, mediates, and intercedes, but these actions manifest, not compromise, his essential equality with the Father. To borrow Aquinas’s formula, “the principle is not greater than that which proceeds, except according to the manner of origin, not according to nature.”

    Nor does the claim that Jesus “nowhere claims a dual nature” withstand scrutiny. The entirety of Christ’s self-revelation presupposes a consciousness and authority both utterly unique and divine (“Before Abraham was, I AM”—John 8:58; “He who has seen me has seen the Father”—John 14:9), alongside an evident participation in human limitations (“I thirst”—John 19:28; “My soul is sorrowful unto death”—Mark 14:34). The resultant theological tension is not a later imposition, but the very datum to which the Church’s Christology is a faithful response.

    As for the charge that mystery is invoked to avoid difficulties, it is a profound misunderstanding of the Christian tradition’s understanding of “mystery.” “Mystery” in the Christian sense is not the abandonment of reason, but the humble confession of the creature’s finite capacity to comprehend the infinite God, especially in the central mysteries of the faith (Trinity, Incarnation, Eucharist). This is not a retreat from evidence, but the recognition that, as Aquinas notes (ST I, q. 1, a. 5), revelation, as the self-disclosure of the transcendent God, necessarily surpasses the grasp of natural reason, though it never contradicts it.

    The objection that the dual nature of Christ is philosophically incoherent is, in fact, an assertion of fideistic empiricism rather than an argument. The unique singularity of the Incarnation is no argument against its coherence; rather, it points to its transcendence above created analogies. The distinction between confusion and division, as articulated at Chalcedon, affirms that the properties of each nature are preserved even in the unity of the person.

    A word on the Jehovah’s Witness proposal of “selective foreknowledge.” By conceding that God may voluntarily refrain from knowing particular futures, the position abandons the very premise used to demote the Son. If omniscience can coexist with voluntary non-cognition in the Father, then the Son’s purported ignorance—granting for argument’s sake that it were real—would not disqualify him from deity. The JW argument undercuts itself. Classical theism, by contrast, defines omniscience as knowledge of all truth values; voluntariness applies to the decision to reveal or to actualize certain truths, not to the possession of them. Hence the scholastic axiom: Deus non potest sibi ignorantiam adjicere—God cannot add ignorance to himself—because ignorance would be a privation incompatible with pure act.

    The Watchtower’s peculiar theory of “selective omniscience” is not only unbiblical but conceptually incoherent. Classical theism maintains that God’s knowledge is not discursive or contingent, but identical with his essence; he knows all things past, present, and future, not by observation but by eternally causing their being. To suggest that God “chooses not to know” certain things is to collapse the distinction between the Creator’s simple, eternal act of knowing and the creature’s limited, temporal cognition. If the Father can “choose not to know,” then ignorance of the future cannot be taken as evidence of non-divinity in the Son. In effect, the Watchtower’s own logic undercuts the very objection they make against orthodox Christology.

    Finally, the Thomistic vision situates Christ’s human not-knowing within the mystery of kenosis (Phil 2:7). The Word “empties” himself not by surrendering attributes but by assuming a created nature capable of temporal learning and docility to the Father’s will. The one person ensures that whatever is predicated of either nature is predicated of Christ; yet the modes of predication differ. The subject “Son” can truly say “I do not know” insofar as he speaks from the vantage of his created intellect engaged in pedagogical economy, while the same “Son” possesses uncreated scientia that eternally comprehends the term of history. To pose the alternatives “either Christ is omniscient or he is ignorant” is therefore to impose a univocal epistemology upon a hypostatic union that transcends such flat categories.

    In sum, the alleged dilemma dissolves when Scripture is read within its canonical scope, when patristic exegesis is heeded, and when the metaphysical precision of Aquinas is applied. The Trinity is not embarrassed by Mark 13:32; rather, the verse becomes a luminous instance of how the eternal Son, remaining what he is, chooses in the humility of his mission to direct the faithful away from speculative curiosity toward the practical vigilance of hope. The Thomistic synthesis secures both the absolute divinity of Father, Son and Spirit and the genuine humanity of the Incarnate Word, thereby preserving the coherence of biblical revelation against every reduction, ancient or modern.

    The challenge presented above is rooted in category errors—failing to distinguish between nature and person, between economic and immanent Trinity, and between communicable and incommunicable knowledge. The Catholic doctrine does not rely upon “contorted arguments,” but upon a coherent metaphysical framework, consistent exegesis, and the accumulated wisdom of the Church. The difficulties posed by passages such as Mark 13:32 are neither ignored nor explained away, but carefully integrated into the total mystery of Christ, who is at once true God and true man. Far from being a problem for the Trinity, they are a confirmation of the apostolic faith that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14)—a mystery ever-ancient, ever-new, and worthy of faith and adoration.

  • vienne
    vienne

    nonsense and babble.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @aqwsed12345:

    Holy forking shirt balls... your two books... errr I mean posts, are taking up at least $12 / month in SQL storage. Poor Simon.

    Overload. Nobody is going to understand.

    Especially after quoting 2 Hypostatic 15:2.

    Define "nature". Define "essense". Contrast those terms. Define "fully" God. Define "fully" human.

    For each term, define them concisely... so in three sentences. And by three, I mean one.

    Every scripture you quoted, the other side reads in their favor. And around we go..... weeeeeeeeeeee

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @MeanMrMustard

    Your demand for clear definitions of "nature," "essence," and the terms "fully God" and "fully human" is not only reasonable but essential if the Trinitarian and Christological doctrines are to be more than empty rhetoric. It is precisely the task of the theology to bring rigor and conceptual clarity to what is too often reduced to slogan or equivocation. Rather than avoiding these concepts or obfuscating in the face of difficulty, let us articulate them precisely, as befits the seriousness of the debate.

    First, “nature” (Greek: physis, Latin: natura) denotes what something is—the set of essential properties and capacities that make a being what it is and not something else. “Essence” (Greek: ousia, Latin: essentia or substantia) is closely related, often interchangeable, but with a subtle distinction: essence is that by which a thing is what it is; it is “that which makes a thing to be what it is.” In concrete terms, the "nature" of a human is to be a rational animal; the "essence" is the underlying reality that actualizes this nature. In the case of God, nature and essence refer to the one, undivided, eternal act of existence—pure actuality (actus purus)—which is to be itself: Ipsum Esse Subsistens, Subsistent Being Itself, as Aquinas says.

    When orthodox theology affirms that Christ is "fully God" and "fully human," it means this: in the single person (hypostasis) of the Son (the Word, the second Person of the Trinity), subsist two complete and unmixed natures—one divine, one human. “Fully God” means that the Son possesses the entire divine essence, lacking nothing proper to Godhead: omnipotence, omniscience, eternity, and so forth. “Fully human” means that, by the Incarnation, the Son assumed a complete human nature, with a rational soul and body, intellect and will, subject to all the conditions and limitations proper to humanity, sin excepted. This is the dogma of the hypostatic union: two natures, one person, "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation," as the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) solemnly defined.

    To press the point further: nature answers the question “what,” person (Greek: hypostasis, Latin: persona) answers “who.” In God, there is one "what" (divine essence), three "whos" (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). In Christ, the "who" is the eternal Word; the "what" is both divine and human natures. Thus, when the Church teaches that the Son is "fully God and fully human," it affirms that everything proper to Godhead and everything proper to humanity are united in the single subject, the Word. There is no diminution, mixture, or absorption; both natures remain intact.

    As to your wry observation that "every scripture you quoted, the other side reads in their favor," this is, in part, the drama of all theological disputation, especially on mysteries that transcend but do not contradict reason. However, the Trinitarian claim is not that Scripture is a cipher, nor that every position is equally plausible, but that the total witness of divine revelation—read in its fullness, with the guidance of Tradition and the Church’s magisterium—coheres only in the mystery of the Trinity and the Incarnation. The Church does not rest its doctrine on isolated proof-texts, but on the total synthesis of biblical, historical, and philosophical data, integrated into a metaphysically coherent system.

    The repeated call for concise definitions is met, then, not by evasion but by intellectual discipline. Essence: that by which a thing is what it is. Nature: the collection of essential properties or capacities. Fully God: possessing every attribute proper to divinity, with nothing lacking. Fully human: possessing every attribute proper to true humanity, with nothing lacking, sin excepted. The coherence of the orthodoxy is not found in the flattening of mystery into analytic clarity, but in preserving the integrity of revelation, reason, and language. The task is not to “go around and around” but to stand in that luminous center where reason, revelation, and worship meet.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @aswed12345:

    Alright. Very good. Now we are getting somewhere. I gave you a like +1 for engaging at definitional level.

    Others can engage too. But I'm going to press you on these definitions later.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    Your objection—that “Jesus nowhere claims a dual nature, nor do Bible writers ever mention it, and the theory was developed merely to explain away inconvenient texts”—is a textbook example of what is known as the "fallacy of exact words" (or "exact definition fallacy"). This is the same logical misstep that Muslim apologists routinely employ when they challenge Christians to produce the exact words "I am God" or "Worship me" from the lips of Jesus in the Bible, and then claim that anything short of those precise syllables is irrelevant. Such demands are philosophically naïve and fundamentally misunderstand how meaningful claims are communicated—both in ordinary language and in divine revelation.

    In no serious academic field—certainly not in history, linguistics, or jurisprudence—are claims rejected because the precise later terminology is not used. Consider: The U.S. Constitution does not use the phrase "separation of church and state," yet the principle is unmistakably articulated in its provisions. Likewise, if I say, "That's my wife and those are my children," I have made it clear that I am married, even if I never utter the literal phrase "I am married." In the same way, if the New Testament presents Jesus as both fully God and fully man, the duality of His natures is attested whether or not the later Greek or Latin technical terms—like hypostasis, physis, or "dual nature"—appear explicitly in the earliest documents.

    Let us look at the relevant evidence. The New Testament unequivocally affirms Jesus' true humanity (e.g., John 1:14; Philippians 2:7-8; Hebrews 2:14-18) and at the same time His full divinity (e.g., John 1:1; 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8). The crucial point is this: if the same subject is described both as fully man and as truly God, then the doctrine of the two natures is the necessary inference—regardless of the vocabulary in use at the time.

    Your challenge could be parodied as follows: "Show me where Jesus said, ‘I am the Messiah’ in those exact words." Yet, when Peter confesses "You are the Messiah" (Matthew 16:16), Jesus does not correct him but commends him. The same applies to the deity of Christ: when Thomas exclaims, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28), Jesus receives this worship without rebuke—something no Jew would ever do unless it were true. Elsewhere, Jesus claims the divine prerogative of receiving worship (Matthew 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52), the right to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-12), the authority to judge the world (John 5:22-23), and the power to give eternal life (John 10:28)—actions and rights which, in Jewish monotheistic context, belong to God alone.

    As for the language of later councils, it is historically and philosophically misguided to object that Chalcedon (AD 451) "developed" the doctrine ex nihilo. Rather, Chalcedon defined and protected the apostolic faith, using the philosophical tools and vocabulary available at the time, in response to heresies that threatened to distort it. This is what any tradition or legal system does when facing new questions: it defines terms, clarifies meanings, and guards against misinterpretation. The doctrine of the Trinity and the Incarnation was not invented in the fourth or fifth century, but was already latent in the Scriptural witness and the worship of the earliest Christians, as even pagan observers like Pliny the Younger noted ("They sing hymns to Christ as to a god"—Ep. X.96).

    It is also vital to note that Jesus, throughout the Gospels, frequently speaks and acts in ways that require his followers to reflect, to draw conclusions from his words and deeds, rather than to accept spoon-fed, soundbite claims. When asked if he is the Messiah or the Son of God (cf. Mark 14:61-62), he affirms with language that invokes Daniel 7—the prophecy of the "Son of Man" who receives worship from all nations forever. The reaction of the high priest, who tears his garments in horror, confirms that Jesus' claim was understood as blasphemous—unless he truly was divine.

    To demand "exact words" is, in itself, a logical fallacy. As Abdulwahab F. Alahmari's recent scholarly article ("Exact Definition Fallacy: A New Logical Fallacy," Radiology Research and Diagnostic Imaging, 2024) observes, debates are often stymied by the insistence that a definition or doctrine is invalid unless it is expressed in a precisely prescribed formula. Such a standard would undermine all historical reasoning, as definitions, terms, and formulations inevitably develop over time while faithfully expressing earlier realities.

    Finally, the early Christian writings (Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Athanasius, and others) consistently affirm both the humanity and the deity of Christ, long before Chalcedon. The technical vocabulary evolved, but the faith was already there. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis: it is not the words, but the realities to which they point, that matter. Christianity proclaims Jesus as true God and true man because this is the clear teaching of Scripture and the consistent faith of the Church—not because of a fifth-century philosophical formula.

    In summary: your objection is simply the "fallacy of exact words"—a demand that is neither logically necessary nor historically responsible. Instead, the two-natures doctrine flows necessarily from what the New Testament asserts: Jesus is truly man and truly God. The Church’s later definitions serve only to preserve, not invent, this apostolic truth.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Walls of text by aqwsed and charts by Seabreeze. Must be another trinity post.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    atleast AQ seems to have learnt how to engage on a human level rather than A.I

    I don't agree with any of it (because its walls of garbage)

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit