What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 263 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Jehovah's Witnesses, and like-minded ones, please consider the following.

    Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus Christ exists, then the following is true.

    Since the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses (by their own admission) does not pray to Jesus Christ or in any other way talk to Jesus Christ, then the governing body is shunning Jesus. They do not seek for Jesus Christ to fellowship with them prior their death - despite knowing what the NT teaches. As a result, if they they continue to be that way until their death, then they will never be co-rulers with Jesus in heaven (or on the Earth during the 1,000 years). In support of that consider the following.

    Matthew 16:24 claims that Jesus spoke of those who want to come after Jesus (that is, come to Jesus). Is the governing body seeking to come to Jesus? Do they attempt to have a personal relationship with Jesus now? Do they ever talk to Jesus Christ?

    John 10:27-28 (1984 NWT) claims Jesus said the following. " 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." Do any of the members of the governing body follow Jesus in that full sense, of having a personal relationship with Jesus? If not, is it unlikely they will obtain everlasting life?

    Revelation 3:20-21 (1984 NWT) claims that Jesus (in what is claimed to be a vision to John) said the following. "20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." Does the governing body figurative open their door to Jesus and fellowship with Jesus? If not, according to Revelation 3:20-21 will they be barred from ruling with Jesus Christ?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    For God ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son: THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him. Jn.5:22,23

    Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not entitled to the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.

    Relative honor to God through an angel was reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not do that!...Worship God." Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT) 'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151

    The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.

    What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped?

    Language of Scripture?:

    "Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.

    Scriptural Example?:

    There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciple for improper proskyneo of Himself. only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.

    Scriptural Instruction?:

    There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.

    Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?


    Form and Content of worship?:

    "...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong." (W.T. March 1880. p.83)

    Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:

    a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11

    b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8

    c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3

    d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and cares? Mat. 11:28

    e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2

    f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14

    g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16

    h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?

    eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.

    i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?

    e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang: Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain

    to receive power and wealth and Wisdom and strength and HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.

    j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?

    e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings; Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last, The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12

    My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28

    Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel, Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23

    All power in heaven and earth is Yours; You created all things; and without you there was nothing made. Jn.1:3 And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8 May all angels and men worship you continually. Heb.1:6

    Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.

    k. Worship of Lamb in heaven by all creation

    13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. NWT

    WHICH ELEMENTS OF PROSKYNEO (ABOVE) DO YOU PRACTICE?

    Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Vanderhoven7, do you have a digital source for 'Let God Be True', 1952 edition? if so, what is your digital source for it?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    @DJW

    You can Google "Let God Be True" Watchtower pdf and you will get a few download sites.

    Try

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Thanks. I had forgotten about that site. About the time I made my post I found https://wtarchive.wordpress.com/ and another site.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Well it seems to me that some on this forum think that Jesus name is getting sufficient coverage and consideration at kingdom halls across the globe.
    And when I say "name" I mean person, not merely a bunch of syllables.
    My take is that Jesus is all but marginalized by so called Jehovah's Witnesses and relationship with Jesus aka Michael the super angel is not only not promoted but also not possible .

    That is a totally different question! If you say JWs downplay Jesus then I’d definitely agree with that. It’s pretty unarguably the case. In terms of mentions, Jesus is probably competing with the Governing Body for second place after Jehovah. (I’ve not done any quantitative analysis on that it’s just an impression)

    I don’t see how that affects what the New Testament says about Jesus being the firstborn of creation, Son of God, messiah and so on. And I do think there is a good case that Jesus is Michael and/or an angel. Even Ehrman concludes that Paul calls Jesus an angel at Gal 4:14.

  • Riley
    Riley

    The story of the New Testament is.

    1. First century Christian’s realizing Jesus is the promised messiah of the one testament.

    2. Jesus is the son god and son of man.

    3. Jesus is the visible touchable manifestion of Jehovah in the Old Testament. The Angel of the lord, the word of the lord , the glory of the lord, the second Jehovah throughout the Old Testament.

    Making the name Jesus know. Is the equivalent of making the power and being or what god is.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Perhaps a bigger factor, than the exclusion of the name YHWH in ancient copies of the NT, in why I started to have doubts about Jehovah's existence when I was a Christian, was the exclusion of the name from nearly all copies of the Septuagint and the widespread exclusion of the name in other translations of the OT, and the loss of knowing the correct pronunciation of the name.

  • waton
    waton

    In a documented testament, or will, the name of the benefactor might have to be identified only once.

    the name of the executor on the other hand appear often, on all papers assigning dispersals.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I don’t think we can determine from history one way or another about the intention of God regarding his name because it’s all open to interpretation. Say we focus on the disuse of God’s name in the Christian Era, we can either conclude that was God’s will that people no longer use the name, or else we can say that was Satan trying to hide the name of God. Point out that Jehovah’s Witnesses revived use of the name in the 20th century and you can say they were 1) going against the will of God 2) other churches use the name as well so JWs are not actually that distinctive, or 3) Jehovah purposely used JWs as the means to revive awareness about his name. You could make coherent arguments for any of those perspectives, it seems to me. The facts of history alone don’t provide one overwhelming interpretation.

    What I am pretty convinced about is the fact that Jesus and the early Christians probably did use God’s name regularly and that this has been obscured by later Christian tradition. I don’t think it’s a coincidence, for example, that Jesus’ name includes the divine name, and the meaning of Jesus’ name is highlighted in Matt 1:21. I don’t think it’s a coincidence either that Jesus three times answers Satan using quotations containing the divine name (Matt 4 and Luke 4). All the earliest LXX contain forms of the divine name. Christian names lists contained the divine name in the form Yaho for centuries. Plus Leviticus fragment used Yaho, and Roman authors say that Jews called their God Yaho in the first century. This means the earliest Christians understood and used the divine name in the form Yaho - I don’t see what other reasonable conclusion can be drawn.

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