by Vanderhoven7 263 Replies latest watchtower bible
After all these very scholarly posts ,
just a simple side by side summary on the Jehovah vs Jesus question of the OP:
Rev. 20:3 NIV : " -- beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus, and because of the word of God".
NWT: "witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God"
wt writers turn this around, they bear witness to God, but talk sometimes about Jesus, currently as the offspring of their hero David.
waton, I think you meant verse 4 instead of verse 3.
I always preferred to spend most of my contemplative free time on naturalistic concepts.
Disillusioned JW: how about these non biblical messages from a possible creator: on Earth, our home, the first planet where life was discovered:
10 fingers of prime species, number 10 in the planetary sequence (4,7,10,16, 28 52, 100 ,196, 292, 388,-) b) orbital velocity, 1/10 000 of "c", Einstein's key, the universal speed limit. c) surface gravity: 10 ms^2, d) Orbit diameter, 1000 light seconds, e) surface atmospheric pressure: 10 m of water; --Earth turns 100 times faster than our Moon---
PS. obviously the universe, the father's work are presented to us as a puzzle to be solved by enlightening science research.
number puzzles,
"appeared to 500 brothers"? solved: composed of 7x70 evangelizers, plus the 11 apostles, minus the one who counted, but forgot to tabulate himself.
sorry for the off topic trivia offence. .
waton, I think you meant verse 4 instead of verse 3.
thank you, showing my 90+age.
Vanderhoven7:
I saw the video you suggested and it confirms the difficulty there is in applying literal meanings within symbolic narratives.
The 144,00 number is likely symbolic as well.
Wonderment
Agreed.
"90+age"! Whoa! Congratulations waton! May you continue to live long and to prosper. You have well exceeded the biblical lifespan mentioned in the Psalms (of 70 or 80 years). Not many people, especially not men, have achieved that. But I don't know whether you are male or female.
[By the way, Leonard Simon Nimoy, the actor who portray Spock in Star Trek, was raised as Orthodox Jewish and he said that the salute his character used in greetings "symbolizes the Hebrew letter shin, the first letter in the word Shadda"i. See whichhttps://qz.com/352855/the-secret-history-behind-leonard-nimoys-spock-salute/ and https://www.startrek.com/article/the-jewish-ritual-that-led-nimoy-to-create-the-vulcan-salute . Since that salute stems from Judaism and since I am now an atheist perhaps I should no longer make that salute.]
Regarding the question of "Jehovah or Jesus" I think it is obvious that the NT focuses on Jesus as Lord and Christ far more than it focuses on YHWH/Jehovah God the Father. It is also obvious that the WT focuses much more on Jehovah than on Jesus. The WT has increasingly focused on Jehovah since about the time it adopted the name "Jehovah's witnesses" (later written as "Jehovah's Witnesses") as the name of the religion it started.
A moment ago noticed that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Nimoy says "Live long and prosper" is a Jewish religious blessing, however I don't see that phrase as being anywhere in the Bible, though it might be a paraphrase of something said in the Bible. Likewise I don't yet see that wording as being used in Jewish worship. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute , which says the following.
"In his 1975 autobiography I Am Not Spock, Nimoy, who was Jewish, wrote that he based it on the Priestly Blessing performed by Jewish Kohanim with both hands, thumb to thumb in this same position, representing the Hebrew letter Shin (ש in Square Script, or Paleo Hebrew 𐤔), which has three upward strokes similar to the position of the thumb and fingers in the gesture. The letter Shin here stands for El Shaddai, meaning "Almighty (God)", as well as for Shekhinah and Shalom. Nimoy wrote that when he was a child, his grandfather took him to an Orthodox synagogue, where he saw the blessing performed and was impressed by it."
Disillusioned JW: Please read John 14:8-12 in the RV or the ASV. Notice in verse 10-11 it says "I am in the Father, and the Father in me" and notice that verse 10 Jesus says "the Father abiding in me". For the moment please read those words literally and ask yourself what they mean in a literal sense. Then please ask yourself if according to the gospel account did Jesus intend that literal meaning .... We know how the NWT uses the phrase "in union with" in these verses (and note that the NWT also uses the word "remains" in verses 10 and 17) and the explanation that the WT gives of these verses, but is that understanding what the account was meant to convey?
This is in answer to the first question:
Mainstream church believers normally take the words "in me" and "abiding in me" in this narrative literally. This is so because they hold the belief that the Father was inside Christ with all its might. Notwithstanding, the early Jesus in human form was limited in knowledge and power, as he revealed that the almighty Father was "in heaven," and he was on earth. (Mt 6.9, Mr 13.32, Mt 20.20-23) To others he acknowledged in various places that he ‘could not do 'one single thing on his own’ unless the Father told him to. (Jn 5.19, 12.49)
He also spoke of doing the works of the Father by command, by will, not by having God literally inside of him. Jesus always spoke of the Father in the third person indicative (as a he), and as his 'superior.'
What about the Greek language? Does the Greek terms in any way require that God be inside Jesus? Let's see! The Greek word for "in" is ἐν, a preposition that has ample meaning. It can have the basic sense of "in," but can additionally mean other things as well (some scholars, like Wallace, mention at least 10 uses).
One of these uses of ἐν is with the instrumental meaning of "by," "with," "through," or "by means of." A Translator's Handboook on the Gospel of John (Newman & Nida, UBS. Italics mine.) explains:
"The meaning may be expressed by translating 'I am one with the Father, and the Father is one with me.' [...] In some languages the relationship between the Father and Jesus may be expressed as 'my Father is united with me, and I am united with my Father' or 'my Father and I are just as though we were one.'"
On 'remaining ('abiding') with,' this same work says: "The Father, who remains in me, does his own work is a fairly literal rendering of the Greek text. These words indicate that Jesus' miracles were not accomplished by his own power or initiative (see 8.28); rather, they reveal his union with the Father."
This explains why various translations render these words like the NWT, such as the Twentieth Century New Testament which renders: "Do not you believe that I am in union with the Father, and the Father with me? In giving you my teaching I am not speaking on my own authority; but the Father himself, always in union with me, does his own work. 11 Believe me," he said to them all, "when I say that I am in union with the Father and the Father with me, or else believe me on account of the work itself." (Bold letters mine) Bible translator, Goodspeed, translated similarly.
As a confirmation to this interpretation, we have the request of Jesus' last night on earth to his Father concerning his followers: "so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me." (Jn 17. 20-23) No one in their right mind would suggest that Almighty God would literally dwell in all his greatness inside the bodies of mortal humans. The mountain where Moses stood in God's presence could not contain all his glory. And the temple of Solomon was neither able to have the full presence of God literally. However, in past times, men and women were very capable to be in union or united with God. And we could do the same today.
In sum, Bible translators who render in harmony with Jesus' words above are accurate.
Thanks Wonderment. Your answer to me makes a lot of sense and you supported it well.
Jesus
