The mistranslation of John 8.58 (page 2)

Rattigan350

"I AM" makes no sense. I agree with what Bennyk said.

kepler

One problem with this argument about translation.

The controversy had already arisen among Greek speaking clerics of the Roman Empire in the 4th century.

John Chrysostom, for example, writes homilies examining the same verses in John and explains Father and Son as both of the same substance. He explicitly opposes Arianism and argues at length against such interpretations.

Check it out.

But whether you believe him or not, once you read him, you will have hard time believing that this is an issue of interpretation into - unless you believe that it was all over a critique of the King James Bible.

Clambake

I think if you read the entire story in John about Jesus nearly being stoned to death by the Pharisees and the previous I AM statements, Jesus is referring to himself as being the I AM in the old testament. It is pretty clear.

Actually if you read the entire book of John it is an testimony of Jesus being " The Angel of the Lord ". The figure that was identified was being god and being with god.

It is best to understand the undelaying themes ( deity of Christ ) of the book of John before pretending you are some expert in biblical Greek and Hebrew. Don't fall for the JW trick of bait and switch , isolate a piece of text and then quote out of context.

Clambake

There was a time in my life when I would study this kind of stuff to the early hours of the morning. Mostly about how the bible was wrong, or mistranslated, or the most accurate bible translation etc etc. There is no end to it and it will literally fry your brain if you let if.

An author I found interesting was Daniel B Wallace and he focuses more on 98% of the bible was is the same instead of the 2% that is different. Once you start to think of the bible in terms of context and probability from a mathematical point of view, mainstream Christian beliefs are pretty much what the bible teaches.

JWs are really trying to disprove the bible. Pay them no mind. Same with this wonderment poster. He is a bible burnout who has fried his brain.

Landy

Wonderment - you either have far too much time on your hands or you need to get a life.

There's a big world out there. Go see some of it.

Wonderment

Clambake: "An author I found interesting was Daniel B Wallace and he focuses more on

98% of the bible was is the same instead of the 2% that is different....JWs are really trying

to disprove the bible. Once you start to think of the bible in terms of context and probability

from a mathematical point of view, mainstream Christian beliefs are pretty much what the

bible teaches. Pay them no mind. Same with this wonderment poster. He is a bible burnout

who has fried his brain."

Do you know that Daniel B. Wallace has explained what I have stated before in regards to

a Greek construction (as that found in John 8.58), having a Greek "progressive present" verb

in the presence of a temporal indicator, the English present perfect is normally called for in translation.

Wallace wrote under (Present of Past Action Still in Progress):

“The present tense may be used to describe an action that, begun in the past, continues in

the present. The emphasis is on the present time. Note that this is different from the perfect tense in that the perfect speaks only about the results existing in the present time. It is different from the progressive present in that it reaches back in time and usually, if not always, has some sort of temporal indicator, such as an adverbial phrase, to show this past-referring element ...

The key to this usage is normally to translate the present tense as an English present perfect …Luke 15:29 τοσαῦτα ἔτη δουλεύω σοι [tosauta etē douleuō soi] I have served you for these

many years 1 John 3:8 ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς ὁ διάβολος ἁμαρτάνει [ap' archēs ho diabolos hamartanei]

the devil has been sinning from the beginning.” (The Basics of New Testament Syntax,

pp. 222-3. Italics and bold letters his. Underline and brackets mine.)

Let look at two texts:

In Luke 15.29, the Greek literally says:

"Look! So many years I am slaving to you..."

"[Look!] I have served you for these many years" - (Wallace's translation)

In 1 John 3.8, the Greek says:

"because from beginning the Devil is sinning."

"the devil has been sinning from the beginning.” - (Wallace's translation)

So in effect, Wallace understands this construction similarly to grammarians Hardy Hansen

& Gerald M. Quinn previously quoted:

“When [the present is] used with expressions denoting past time, the present is the equivalent of the English present progressive perfect."

Consider too that although many Trinitarians are confident the "I am" expression issued by

Christ is surely linked to Exodus 3.14, not all agree. One such scholar, James White, is an Evangelical who defends the Trinity with passion before Jehovah's Witnesses, but came to this conclusion:

“It could fairly be admitted that an immediate and unqualified jump from the ego eimi of

John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14 is unwise.” (“Purpose and Meaning of ‘Ego Eimi’ in the Gospel of

John In Reference to the Deity of Christ.”)

Another scholar, C. K. Barrett, who served as Professor of Divinity in the University of Durham, concluded:

That the Jews' reaction in verse 59  "does not mean  that Jesus

had claimed to be God.”  (The Gospel According to St. John)


I will say this:  Not everyone has the same understanding of things

relating to a particular scripture. And that is true even among

Catholics and Protestant believers. The challenge then, is to analyze

the various available explanations to see which ones fit better with

Jesus' own simple statements... "I live because of the Father";

 "I am God's Son." (John 6.57; 10.36)

Clambake

Your nuts

Get help

Wonderment

Landy: "Wonderment - you either have far too much time on your hands or you need to get a life. There's a big world out there. Go see some of it."

Landy, I like your advice better than Clambake's.

surley

Hi I just signed up, because JW,s fascinate me. It reminds me of the King in the bible who took the pen knife and cut away what he didn't want from the Word of God and threw it in the fire. I mean if Jehovah is God why can't he preserve his Word? Jesus said in John 5:39 "You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me ."But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. That sounds pretty uncomplicated, now lets see how would a good jw fix it to make their jesus fit into their little god box. How exactly do you interpret. John 8:24. because in the end its the only one that matters and please by all means check your greek interlinear { if you do not believe that IAM HE you will die in your sins}.Which by jw teaching is not really a big deal. But Jesus thought it was the most important thing. he said in mark 8:36 "For what profits a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul'. But jw teaching paradise earth is all they need. He paid a debt he did not owe, you owe a debt you can not pay. It is so easy even a child can comprehend it Father I'm sorry I have sinned against YOU I give You, LORD Jesus the rest of my life, please change me into the person You created me to be Amen. Why make it so hard, He didn't mean it to be, He loves you and wants a relationship with you. Once You come to Him he answerers Your prayers and You know Your HIs. I admire jws I know they are trying to please god, their own version, of who they want him to be.(That's idolatry by the way).A SIN. But its not the God who revealed Himself in the PERSON of CHRIST.

Introvert 2

Have not read the complete post yet as I'm on the way out and away from internet tomorrow but look up Wrongly Translated Verses by Arne Jordly on Jordly.com He usually has a good handle on things. I don't know how he did it but the guys been at it for over 25 years a real machine ! I'll look into John 8:58 when I get home I have his complete up to date works.

The mistranslation of John 8.58

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